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Author Topic: Teach An Old Dog Matched Grip?  (Read 665 times)
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racindrummer
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« on: November 17, 2007, 09:34 AM »

I started  playing in about 1956 and spent most of my college career as a music major and working musician.  But family came along and I quit until five years ago.  Making up for lost time, I currently play with a big band, a jazz quintet, a blues band, and the contemporary praise band at church.

I learned and always played traditional grip.  This always worked fine for me.  But recently the big band did a Latin number that calls for straight eighths on the hats and a simultaneous pattern going on the snare and toms.  I found this impossible to do with traditional grip, so started doing this one song with matched grip.  Not exactly a lot of finesse, but it worked OK.  Then practicing at home it finally dawned on me how much easier it is to play this groove open handed, with left hand on hats.  So I have bitten the bullet and committed to develop both match grip and open handed technique.

I am now spending about an hour and a half each day with "Stick Control" for the grip and "Advanced Funk Studies" for the open handed.  I can't yet do ghost notes or good rolls, but I am starting to use the matched grip some in the church gig.

How long do you guys think it will take to get my left hand back up to snuff and, if I do will I continue to use traditional grip at all?  Can you really retrain an old dog?
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2007, 11:23 AM »

Hey Racin,

It sounds like you're putting in the requisite practice time so I imagine it won't take all that long to get proficient enough at these skills.  Whether it's weeks, months or years is too hard for anyone else to predict I'd say.  For me it took a couple of years to get going after a long layoff, but I was only going with moderate practice.  Hopefully you'll be much quicker if you're going an hour and a half a day! 

As for whether you'll use trad grip again is hard to say.  I play mostly matched behind the kit but still go to trad in some circumstances so I'd venture to say that you may do the same.  For example, I like trad with brushes, and certain musical styles.  I also tend to use trad on tunes where I flip my sticks over to use the mallet ends.  There's no compelling reason to, but it's just what works for me. 
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2007, 11:31 AM »

I also tend to use trad on tunes where I flip my sticks over to use the mallet ends.  There's no compelling reason to, but it's just what works for me. 

Sometimes I switch to trad to change the grip and use the muscles differently.  This can help relax and smooth things a bit. 
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2007, 08:49 PM »

I'll tell you what.  I was a traditional player from the start of elementary band.  Learned how to play it properly in high school from a major college professor.  He made me also switch and learn matched grip. To this day some 25 years later I still can't play matched grip very well. I say learn the open handed playing and stick with traditional grip.   Hang loose !
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felix
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2007, 06:24 AM »

There seems to have been a big comeback to trad. playing I've noticed.  My take is if you are comfy with the grip don't sweat playing matched.  I'd just work on making the music and feel awesome.  I was caught up in learning trad. a couple of years ago and finally I just chucked the idea.  It's not me.

I wouldn't worry playing open and just put some hi hats on your rh side (or just play your ride cymbal is all I would do/alt. the bell and the bow for an open and close effect?) but the politically correct answer is you should master both grips to cover all styles  Roll Eyes yeah that and work on your open playing/ left hand lead!

yes, I CHEAT!!!!
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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2007, 02:41 PM »

I was taught and grew up with traditional grip. So on many songs I do it just because it's easier for me. But when I don't need intricate playing and a good solid smack I'll switch to matched grip. I'm not as able to do intricate stuff with matched, so I just switch back again to traditional. I realy don't think much about it anymore. I just do it, that's what seems natural to my hands and brain. It's a feel that the brain puts into motion as needed. It doesn't hurt to learn both styles. After years of playing I don't think about it much. But I'm much better at tradional than matched. It's the way I grew up playing, so the brain makes it more natural for me. Good luck, it takes a lot of practice to learn both. For me, I go for what feels and sounds good at the moment. Right or wrong? Got me, it's just what I do.   Grin
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2007, 03:02 PM »

It took me about a year of focused work to get my matched grip on a par with my traditional grip. And just because you work on it doesn't mean your traditional grip will suffer. Overall matched is a much more logical grip, so I think you'll find it beneficial to add it to your arsenal. To develop ghost notes, work on exercises with extreme dynamic levels, with powerful accents surrounded by very quiet unaccented notes. Also, this exercise made up of continuous 16th notes will help both your roll and your ghost notes (capital letters are accented):


L r r l   L r r l   L r r l   L r r l   

Work on that slowly, building it up to a roll. Good luck!
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2007, 06:09 PM »

 
I used to play trad grip, but that way my left hand wasn't hard enough on the snare (rock music), so I started to play hitting the heads with the butt end of the stick with matched grip in my left hand, and I switched back to traditional grip every now and then for longer fills and more jazzy beats, and it didn't really work. So now, after several months of practising, I quite steadily play with the matched grip, but I can't do a solo this way, and I can't do a solo any more with the trad grip either, as I set my snare without a tilt to make it comfortable for the matched grip. Catch 22, isn't it.
 
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2007, 06:44 PM »

By way of inspiration, here's a Keith Carlock clip:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_63R8EAu6WI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/_63R8EAu6WI</a>

He switches between trad and matched grip, especially in a Latin influenced, cross-stick moment.
He exhibits the same power with both grips, but he obviously feels more comfortable with Trad, as he switches back immediately for some very powerful and fast tom work.
Interestingly, he plays the hi-hat with his left hand (Trad grip) at certain points.

Steely Dan opened the show with a latin influenced instrumental.
I can't remember if he played matched for some of that or not.
As the parts were similar to some of this solo, I presume he did some fast switching, especially for cross-stick playing

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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2007, 06:52 PM »

Here you go, from a previous tour:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/MtBFYUXqVS8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/MtBFYUXqVS8</a>

You can see KC almost fumbling between matched and trad grips.  Grin

There's hope for us all.  Undecided
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2007, 05:29 AM »

...

That's exactly what I couldn't do. (And besides, I often made dents on the rack toms with trad grip.) So I fixed my tilted snare to horizontal, and started to play matched exclusively, and my beat is stronger now, but I miss out a lot of fine fills.
 
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 01:28 PM »

I started  playing in about 1956 and spent most of my college career as a music major and working musician.  But family came along and I quit until five years ago.  Making up for lost time, I currently play with a big band, a jazz quintet, a blues band, and the contemporary praise band at church.

Can you really retrain an old dog?


Definitely!!!depending on the dog, of course.....Your path sounds similar to mine, but mine is/was more extreme...I played from 63-73 with trad grip...starting in drum corp and orchestra...then jazz.....retired in 73 from music.........when I jumped (well....limped...) back on the ladder 2 years ago...I switched to strictly matched, and.. so far.. very awkward open handed..not grooveable yet......I have come to the conclusion that both trad and matched have their places...Tony Williams mentioned in a clinic that was his opinon..two different styles get different sonic/?/sound possibilities...he played both....

So far I can't get the left hand brush flick thing with matched grip...different angle to the head....not that it can't be done of course...I posted about that topic.....just need more practice to get it to feel right....so for now my left matched grip is completely atrophied...makes brush playing awkward, switching back and forth for soup and fills....it didn't take long to get back into shape for matched...so I think I'll work on trad grip a little too......

good luck!.......what made you jump back in the pool?
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 02:27 PM »

 
It's interesting how many of us there are here who returned to drumming ('limped back' is a great expression for this!) after a very long break. This would be well worth a new thread; old guys with long grey hair playing as if they were sixteen again. Smiley
 
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 05:07 PM »

I learned trad. grip growing up but changed in college during the '80's. I'm curently practicing drumset with only matched although I spend time on the pad practicing traditional.
I'm not sold yet on using traditional as my primary grip but I continue to practice it. Tongue

I rarely use trad. grip only because I like my rimshots and find it tough to incorporate them comfortably on my snare without tilting it to the side and away.

Like felix said, I've noticed a resurgence in traditional grip. I think this is primarily due to some high end players studying with and then espousing the teaching of Freddy Gruber. Steve Smith, Dave Weckl, JoJo Mayer and even Neil Peart speak about their use of traditional and how Freddy affected them. They make the case for the left hand having a purposely different role. The best description I heard was for the traditional being a more sensual or caressing grip (it's either Smith or Weckl saying this, ....can't remember which... and supposedly quoting Tony Williams).

I'm also pursuing open handed playing although it is coming slow. I currently can't afford a second remote cable hi-hat per Dom Famularo's suggestion although I am going to start using an x-hat soon in my typical setup. I see a lot of great practicality using this approach but it will take me quite a while to feel 100% with it. Even then I probably won't completely surrender crossing over. I figure the practice time will at worst create a stronger left hand. I've evn felt some interesting ideras coming out with the switching of hands.

If you are thinking of going trad, check out the Steve Smith 'History of the US Beat' DVD as well as Dave Weckls's 'How to Develop Technique DVD'. see what the masters have to say. BTW: The Smith DVD is available on Netflix.

I would give some thought as to how much regular time you want to put into working it up.

HTH

Jim
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