ThickSkin
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« on: November 21, 2007, 01:32 AM » |
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Okay, first off I've been playing drums for a long while, just as a recreational activity. Lately I've really wanted to start taking my playing seriously. I'm okay on the set, but I hardly ever practice with a metronome, so I need to change that I know... But right now due to scheduling and such I don't have much time on the trap set anymore. I picked up a practice pad and a few books on rudiments and such (Stick Control is one of them), thinking if I get my hands solid on time and get some good control, I should be a little better coordinated and such on the set. There's one problem ... I don't know how to read the music. I struggled and eventually figured out the timing for triplets, but "seeing" what to play is difficult. Right now I'm trying to play the first solo in "The Rudimental Cookbook" by Edward Freytag. I'm okay for the first few measures, then there are what look like triplets with one note stretched ... and I don't know if there's a rest there or what. If I heard the solo played it would be easier, but the book didn't come with a CD. I've looked at some guides to reading sheet music online, but still can't quite figure it out. If any of you have this book, you'll see that the measure divisions aren't exactly uniform as well, so that makes it a little more difficult as well. I'm willing to devote the time it takes to get this down, as I feel it will really improve my playing ... I'm just lost as far as the timing goes. Any help or input would be greatly appreciated. And Hi, this is my first post here. I'm Mike  EDIT: I was just poking around again and found a clue ... what do the number of bars connecting notes have to do with the timing? There's like a single bar connecting two notes, then a little bit of a second bar right above a note. Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I really can't find anything to help any more. |
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moosetication
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one ... two ... one two three four
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 05:13 AM » |
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If I heard the solo played it would be easier, but the book didn't come with a CD. Check out Norm Weinberg's Web Rhythms on Vic Firth as a practical introduction to reading. They're progressively difficult passages right from basics, and each has MIDI examples at various tempos for you to listen or play along to. EDIT: I was just poking around again and found a clue ... what do the number of bars connecting notes have to do with the timing? There's like a single bar connecting two notes, then a little bit of a second bar right above a note. The number of lines in the beam is the same number of lines that you would have on the "flag" at the top of a non-beamed note stem. In other words, if four notes are beamed with a double-line, those are sixteenths. However, notes that are beamed do not all have to have the same value. To get the value of any note in a beamed figure, just look at the number of lines touching its stem. |
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After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. Aldous Huxley
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2007, 06:33 AM » |
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You will learn this SO much more quickly and easily with a live teacher. Invest in a few lessons, and you'll avoid making any mistaken assumptions, plus you'll be able to rapidly eliminate any of the occasional confusion you'll inevitably encounter. Books and the Internet are great resources. But when you're getting your basics together, there is NO substitute for a real live teacher. A teacher can see and hear what you're doing wrong, and correct your problem in minutes, not weeks or months. Just say yes to drum lessons!  |
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I just found out most of the recordings I'm on were actually played by Bernard Purdie. my drummerworld page |
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boomka
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2007, 06:37 AM » |
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Amen, Mr. A.
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In lumine lucem
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Hannah Ford
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2007, 07:59 AM » |
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When I first started playing I was taught patterns, scales, chords and rudiments. From there we were taught basically to improvise by ear and I learned many jazz standards and other great tunes that way. I still think it was a great way to begin because I found myself actually playing tunes as a beginner and I was never board.
It did not take long however for the challenges of not being able to read to set in. Had it not been for the fact my Dad is a great sight reader and knew the importance of reading, I don't know if I would have made it! LOL
Reading is a must and something you get better at simply by doing it. I could not imagine learning to read however without the help of a teacher and some private lessons. Make an investment in yourself and your playing with a good teacher and I promise you'll leap light years ahead of where you currently are in no time at all.
Reading is fun!
Enjoy...
Hannah
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Peace Love & Drums...
Hannah Ford
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TheAudiophobe
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 01:12 PM » |
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You will learn this SO much more quickly and easily with a live teacher. Invest in a few lessons, and you'll avoid making any mistaken assumptions, plus you'll be able to rapidly eliminate any of the occasional confusion you'll inevitably encounter.
Exactly. And realistically, since you're "starting from scratch" as far as reading goes, you don't have to hire a "top-name" teacher. The drumset teacher at the local music shop should be more than capable of helping you out (at a very reasonable rate). |
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..."An audience can innately recognize honesty when they hear it and they respond to it on a much deeper level. The challenge then for me becomes not how to consistently “wow” people, but how to most effectively and clearly express myself. And there’s no formula for that, it’s a lifelong pursuit.” – Dirk Quinn www.myspace.com/anthonylattanzeband |
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ThickSkin
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 07:49 PM » |
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Sweet, thanks for the advice, guys. I'll look into getting a teacher, it's just gonna be difficult with my schedule. I just gotta make time for it though. Sounds like the way to go  |
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Ninja Drummer
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 10:24 PM » |
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4 Words dude "Sheet Music......is....evil...." When it comes to drummers, sheet music is their weakness. I may know about 5 years into playing piano, and can name every note and type of rthym... But hell it's just doesn't mix in with drumming. It just adds into the coordination, you have part of your mind on time, part on what drum to hit, part on listening to the other instuments, and part on the music. @$%# that's too much man, for any musician. Especially when there's a conductor, I mean the conductors I've worked with always want your attention, but it is soooooo @$%# hard to do that when your trying to get read the right beats and watch what he's doing at the same time. It just really really pestors me. And the repeat signs in sheet music just adds on to the horror, they throw you off so easily. All sheet music I've played with have that, the "Play this beat, ok now repeat the last measure, ok now do it again, and another 64 measures after that." I've met with other drummers and went through couple of instructors that tell you to memorize the beat, read a couple measures, get it in your head then look up at the conductor every once in a while. Then they say to just make up your own beats (as long as it fits in with the style of music) every once in a while, then there's the 4 bar phrase thingy, bah so many methods, but even then it is hard to master it unless you actually memorize the whole song. It's hard, especially with jazz bands, even though jazz bands usually don't have conductors, sometimes there is, and it's a pain when the conductor barks at your for your attention. I mean, it's just... drummers don't read music, it's not their thing, they're a drummer, they make rthyms and keep time. Not make melodies.
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  ---------------------------------------- "For every stick I break, I gain a boost of experience" "You can learn from all drummers beginners-experts"-unknown drummer |
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 10:35 PM » |
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4 Words dude "Sheet Music......is....evil...." When it comes to drummers, sheet music is their weakness. I may know about 5 years into playing piano, and can name every note and type of rthym... But hell it's just doesn't mix in with drumming. It just adds into the coordination, you have part of your mind on time, part on what drum to hit, part on listening to the other instuments, and part on the music. @$%# that's too much man, for any musician. Especially when there's a conductor, I mean the conductors I've worked with always want your attention, but it is soooooo @$%# hard to do that when your trying to get read the right beats and watch what he's doing at the same time. It just really really pestors me. And the repeat signs in sheet music just adds on to the horror, they throw you off so easily. All sheet music I've played with have that, the "Play this beat, ok now repeat the last measure, ok now do it again, and another 64 measures after that." I've met with other drummers and went through couple of instructors that tell you to memorize the beat, read a couple measures, get it in your head then look up at the conductor every once in a while. Then they say to just make up your own beats (as long as it fits in with the style of music) every once in a while, then there's the 4 bar phrase thingy, bah so many methods, but even then it is hard to master it unless you actually memorize the whole song. It's hard, especially with jazz bands, even though jazz bands usually don't have conductors, sometimes there is, and it's a pain when the conductor barks at your for your attention. I mean, it's just... drummers don't read music, it's not their thing, they're a drummer, they make rthyms and keep time. Not make melodies.
I pray that you're kidding. |
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I just found out most of the recordings I'm on were actually played by Bernard Purdie. my drummerworld page |
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Louis
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 10:42 PM » |
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I pray that you're kidding.
That would make a good SNL skit but I hope the newer drummers understand you are kidding. |
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It is not what you have, it is what you do with what you have that makes the biggest difference in the sound!
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Hannah Ford
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2007, 10:45 PM » |
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4 Words dude "Sheet Music......is....evil...." When it comes to drummers, sheet music is their weakness. I may know about 5 years into playing piano, and can name every note and type of rthym... But hell it's just doesn't mix in with drumming. It just adds into the coordination, you have part of your mind on time, part on what drum to hit, part on listening to the other instuments, and part on the music. @$%# that's too much man, for any musician. Especially when there's a conductor, I mean the conductors I've worked with always want your attention, but it is soooooo @$%# hard to do that when your trying to get read the right beats and watch what he's doing at the same time. It just really really pestors me. And the repeat signs in sheet music just adds on to the horror, they throw you off so easily. All sheet music I've played with have that, the "Play this beat, ok now repeat the last measure, ok now do it again, and another 64 measures after that." I've met with other drummers and went through couple of instructors that tell you to memorize the beat, read a couple measures, get it in your head then look up at the conductor every once in a while. Then they say to just make up your own beats (as long as it fits in with the style of music) every once in a while, then there's the 4 bar phrase thingy, bah so many methods, but even then it is hard to master it unless you actually memorize the whole song. It's hard, especially with jazz bands, even though jazz bands usually don't have conductors, sometimes there is, and it's a pain when the conductor barks at your for your attention. I mean, it's just... drummers don't read music, it's not their thing, they're a drummer, they make rthyms and keep time. Not make melodies.
I'm not sure what part of your statement I disagree with the most so I think I'll just point out that drummers do make melodies. I NEVER sit behind a kit that I somehow don't think about being melodic and playing musical and being not just a drummer but a musician. If drums weren't meant to make melodies or be melodic why would there be different sizes for different tones and pitches??? I'd much rather be a drummer that makes melodies than a drummer that just plays with blazing speed or crazy chops. Maybe I'm the odd one...but I'm betting there are many others here that would agree. Hannah |
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Peace Love & Drums...
Hannah Ford
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yankeeboy13
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2007, 11:44 PM » |
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I'm not sure what part of your statement I disagree with the most
Pretty much my first thoughts too. When it comes to drummers, sheet music is their weakness. I may know about 5 years into playing piano, and can name every note and type of rthym... But hell it's just doesn't mix in with drumming.
My opinion may not count for much, but I actually enjoy reading sheet music. I find sight reading to be a really fun challenge every once in a while. Also, I can say that my experience learning to read "normal" music (non-drum music) has defiantly improved my set reading, not to mention my versatility percussion-wise in school. Especially when there's a conductor, I mean the conductors I've worked with always want your attention, but it is soooooo @$%# hard to do that when your trying to get read the right beats and watch what he's doing at the same time.
I look at the conductor out of the corner of my eye as I read the music. Eventually as I memorize parts, I can watch more, and rely less on the sheet music. I mean, it's just... drummers don't read music, it's not their thing, they're a drummer, they make rthyms and keep time. Not make melodies.
Repeat of what Hannah said. |
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Drum4JC
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2007, 11:50 PM » |
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Right now I'm trying to play the first solo in "The Rudimental Cookbook" by Edward Freytag. I'm okay for the first few measures, then there are what look like triplets with one note stretched ... and I don't know if there's a rest there or what. If I heard the solo played it would be easier, but the book didn't come with a CD.
Hey Thick, welcome aboard. I agree with the lessons. Even a few will pay huge dividends. To answer your question directly, the notes in question are an eighth note and two 16th notes. The eighth note gets exactly one-half of the beat and the two sixteenth notes comprise the last two 4ths of that one beat. If you think of the spacing of the 8th notes in the first line, the two sixteenth notes just "replace" an eighth note getting two evenly spaced hits in place of the one eighth. The resulting sound sort of resembles a gallop... Unfortunately, the cookbook does not have a note chart to show you how notes get divided into their smaller components. One book that I know does is the Elementary Drum Method Book by Roy Burns. Page 3 has the chart. Please keep us posted! |
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 04:51 AM » |
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I pray that you're kidding.
Based on some previous posts.....I fear not. I'll look into getting a teacher, it's just gonna be difficult with my schedule. I just gotta make time for it though.
Sticking to regular times might be difficult for you, but the actual time saved will be enormous. You would have had an answer to this in minutes, whereas it seems you've been digging around for information for quite a while. |
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Dave Heim
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2007, 09:36 AM » |
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Dave Heim
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2007, 10:41 AM » |
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You will learn this SO much more quickly and easily with a live teacher. Invest in a few lessons, and you'll avoid making any mistaken assumptions, plus you'll be able to rapidly eliminate any of the occasional confusion you'll inevitably encounter. Books and the Internet are great resources. But when you're getting your basics together, there is NO substitute for a real live teacher. A teacher can see and hear what you're doing wrong, and correct your problem in minutes, not weeks or months. Just say yes to drum lessons! Excellent advice there from Mister A, Mike (welcome to the Cafe, by the way). A teacher - even for a just a few lessons - will get you going in the right direction. They look over your shoulder, correct things on the spot, explain things in a manner you can understand, answer your questions, and give encouragement and feedback. All good stuff. Also, Drum! Magazine has a monthly feature on reading music - you might look there for some help in the mean time. But, by all means, try to get a teacher! |
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Ninja Drummer
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2007, 01:03 PM » |
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Heheh excuse me for that, I guess it's just me who hates sheet music, as for the melodies, I meant that drummers don't actually.... man it's hard to explain, They don't make the tunes of the song... But even that even doesn't explain it... bahh.... But, I've known drummers who don't like reading music. Not many that I know read music. But for me, music is just to restraining... I mean sure it gives the beat that fits right for the song, but I'm an independant type drummer. I would love to use my beats instead of the written, but if anything I would use the music to get a beat off of. But what I meant by sheet music, is the sheet music for Jazz band specifically, Concert band I can work with, but jazz is my main killer when it comes to music. I'm not sure if yall too me wrong for rthym sheet music or not, but that is totally different than what I'm talking about, I love rthym sheet music, they help me learn a lot when it comes to rudiments and rthyms, they play a large part in how I make up beats and good rthyms for songs. I meant sheet music for songs, not rthyms, but if that's not what you were indicating, then I apologize, I was taking it from the drummers I've known personally.
Yall really did kill me with this, I can still feel the pain X.X
Sorry, heh
Got too offensive there.
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---------------------------------------- "For every stick I break, I gain a boost of experience" "You can learn from all drummers beginners-experts"-unknown drummer |
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2007, 03:38 PM » |
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It's probably not so great to give advice based on some personal prejudices. Reading music is a handy skill. there is nothing about it that cramps your creativity. I use drum music to help me learn songs quickly. It helps me practice other drummers playing/ideas, and we use it all the time to communicate on The Cafe. Any chance of spelling rhythm correctly and using some paragraphs in your posts?  They are a bit hard to read. |
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2007, 04:18 PM » |
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It's probably not so great to give advice based on some personal prejudices.
Amen. Ignorance tends to provide a pretty shaky foundation for opinions. |
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I just found out most of the recordings I'm on were actually played by Bernard Purdie. my drummerworld page |
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2007, 04:30 PM » |
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It's probably not so great to give advice based on some personal prejudices.
... or when there is a lack of real experience or knowledge. When we have opinions based on limited experience or knowledge, we look foolish. It's one thing to have an opinion based on one experience, it's also a completely other thing when someone makes grand/broad absolute type comments or statements when they have very little experience or real knowledge of the subject matter. FYI ... if you are a teenager or have only been playing a few years ... it's wisdom to not make broad, absolute statements. There's a very strong chance that your assessment or opinion is completely incorrect. If you absolutely must make a statement or give your opinion, and you have little experience or knowledge about the topic, it might be wise to qualify it first ... admitting up front that your opinion is based on limited knowledge. This will keep the respect level high on your behalf and will probably keep you from getting your wrist slapped in public.  Glad we got all of this cleared up! |
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