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Author Topic: Reading music ... issues with timing.  (Read 2668 times)
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Louis
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2007, 07:33 PM »

This is only my opinion but it may put things in perspective.  If you can speak and hear but not read or write you are considered illiterate in todays world and are at a distinct disadvantage when compared with people who are able to read and write.  Music is a language and sheet music is the way we read and write that language.  If you are not able to read music well you are as disadvantaged in the music world as the person who is unable to read or write the written word is in society.  I am not great at sight reading and I certainly will never write a musical masterpiece but I can read well enough for the times it is needed. 
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2007, 03:21 PM »

Don't ignore sheet music. It taught you many styles of the drummer craft. If you can read music it tells other musicians you've been through many types of training. People that just bangs away on a set is one thing. People who can show that they've been down that road it tells them another thing. I've never been sorry for the experiences I've had. But I have seen people tell they didn't pay attention to their teachers. It has a way of working against you, and sometimes it shows.   Roll Eyes 
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2007, 03:36 PM »

Here comes my two cents:

It all depends on what your musical goals are.

But, no matter What your musical goals are, everyone should at least learn basic reading.

Will it take lots of time and effort to build the skill to read Any piece Anytime in Realtime?
Depends on the individual, but - probably.

Will it take lots of time to build basic reading skills?   No way.   

Getting basic reading down is very straightforward, and every percussionist should at least get that far.  Again, the size of the effort after that can depend on your specific musical goals.

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Ninja Drummer
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2007, 08:05 PM »

I know how to read music, it's just that it isn't my most favorite thing when it comes to drumming.

  Yeah, you might see me speak without thinking sometimes, so just you know, ignore me when I do that eheh ^^'.  I'm just your typical teenager... blahhhh, though I do respect other drummers, and I do learn a lot from them.  They are the teachers of drumming.  I do gain lots of info. from drummercafe, and I love it always and hope to always learn from it.  Even if I do make a stupid comment, I learn from the mistake when yall correct me for it, so in a way, I guess I'm thankful.

But again, I don't hate sheet music in all shapes and forms, it's just that when it comes to drumming, it really grinds my gears.  Especially when you've got a conductor clawing your back about not playing specific things, and if not everything.  For I'm told that you don't have to play everything on sheet and have some sort of relaxation and independance. 

Sheet music does help me, even if I feel like shooting it when it comes to sheet music for songs I have to admit it.
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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2007, 09:51 AM »

Quote
Especially when you've got a conductor clawing your back about not playing specific things, and if not everything.

One of the greatest lessons we can learn (I'm still working on it) is that it's not always about you!

When challenged to play something differently we can be defensive, assume people are out to get us, and assert that "our way" is the "right way". Or, we can take it as an opportunity to learn something new and expand our playing vocabulary by learning to play what is asked for. Assuming the goal is to be a great drummer who people want to hire, which of these helps you get there?


Another approach to "a conductor clawing your back" is to put the end result out of your mind and concentrate on the process of producing the result. It can be quite liberating to stop worrying about whether or not the part is right in the overall scheme of things and relax and focus everything you can muster on playing the part correctly and with conviction. Again, ask which one serves your goals in the long run?

I'm currently working with a band who consider themselves "amateurs" and me a "professional" because of my experience and training. However, we came to a point after a few rehearsals where they were worried that if they told a "professional drummer" what to play, that I (thinking they're "just" amateurs) would tell them to stuff it. My response was that as a "professional" I consider it my job to make the song sound good and to be open to any possibilities that might make that happen. THEY wrote the songs, they know how they want them to sound. I'll certainly put my opinion out there if I think it doesn't work, but only after trying the idea. The result? The band is getting along great, the songs sound better (they have some  cool ideas for drum arrangements) and I'm being pushed outside of my comfort zone to play grooves and fills that I wouldn't have thought of off the top of my head.

It's the same with reading written charts. They aren't your enemy, they're a guide - a set of ideas that work in the ears of the composer. Even if we are going to concern ourselves with the overall result, rather than blindly asserting our "rightness" and trundling out the same ideas every time we play, we have the opportunity to open up our ears and try to hear what it is the composer and conductor hear. We can try and understand and gauge the musical importance of what they're asking us to play. Again, assuming the goal is to be a great drummer and have a wide vocabulary of ideas to be able to draw from in any situation, what attitude serves us best? The more of these ideas that we try and absorb, and the more we develop the skills to play them (including reading) the more our opinions will have the weight of experience behind them when we do speak up and say, "Uh-uh, like this." 

 
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« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2007, 11:00 AM »

Ninja, you have gotten some very good advise here and I hope you are able to learn from it. 

I'm reminded of a management course I took years ago that was called "Don't be a victim".  It taught that people fall into one of two groups.  You are either a "victim" or "user".  A victim says to himself "How can I get through this?" whereas a user says "How can I use this for my benefit?".

Instead of worrying about how to please your music director why not take a different mentality and ask yourself how you can use his knowledge to help you become a better musician?
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« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2007, 11:20 AM »

Ninja, you have gotten some very good advise here and I hope you are able to learn from it. 

I'm reminded of a management course I took years ago that was called "Don't be a victim".  It taught that people fall into one of two groups.  You are either a "victim" or "user".  A victim says to himself "How can I get through this?" whereas a user says "How can I use this for my benefit?".

Instead of worrying about how to please your music director why not take a different mentality and ask yourself how you can use his knowledge to help you become a better musician?

Lol I'm not a rapist, but still, yeah I really do try not to be selfish, it's in my family blood to think about yourself so much, but I really try not to.

 As for the music, I do use the the music as a guide, is just that, when I'm trying to work on keeping time and getting the feel of rhythm (there I spelled it right  Tongue) it annoys me how the conductor will stop everything just to point me out about that, even though I'm trying to break it down.  Then he does it again if I do it again.  And I'm pretty shy so I'm not much of the type that defends himself out in the open.  But I do follow the music, there is another fellow drummer of mine that plays along with me in a local jazz band ensemble that just takes the whole beat of the song and plays it in a whole different beat, but in the same relative style of music as well... so ehhhh.

But thanks for the advise, I do take it in well, and again I do take in a lot of thinks here at drummer cafe, it is where most of what I learn comes from.  It's just sometimes I get carried away when I'm trying to chip in my opinion on things, and include everyone and me instead of just me. 

I get so omniscent sometimes and I feel real bad when it affects people..... ><

thanks,

Ninja_Drummer
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« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2007, 03:00 PM »

Why do you want to defend yourself if a conductor tells you your feel isn't right, or there are problems with timekeeping?
Firstly you say you are working on it, that's good, but secondly if you are in an ensemble with a conductor it's usually their job to get the best out of each player.
The conductor obviously thinks you can do better.
It's a pain, but it's a great motivator to improve.
I wouldn't think to defend myself, but work harder if I were in your shoes.
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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2007, 06:58 PM »

I've been reading music since I was 4 years old, so it's difficult for me to imagine playing anything worthwhile without being able to read music. That's whether or not there's music in front of you. When I play I "see" music in my head. I tend to notate as I go along.

Really, if you can't read music, you've missed out on these awesome perqs:

- Able to know meter when you hear it. Any meter, including changes.

- Quickly compile any drum part you hear. It's like the entire mystery is resolved. The more advanced your reading/writing skills, the less mystified you are by any drum part. You almost never have to go a message board like this and ask, "How does X drummer play Y part." Even if you are not currently capable of performing said drum part, you will at least be able to write it out and understand what is being played. That's pretty much my entire experience with any Vinnie Colaiuta chart

- Able to be more creative. There. I said it. If you can read/write music, you become more intimately aware of context of the music. If you can see in notation how the parts fit together, you will be less likely to get locked into rhythmic jail. Where there was once a finite possibility, you will see infinite possibility.

- Always know where "1" is. I honestly don't know how drummers exist in the professional world without this. I guess they just make a million mistakes until it becomes intuitive, but it comes 20 years earlier if you can read/write, without first damaging your reputation with important people.

- Be exposed to many advanced concepts that are simply not available to listening to music as it becomes available to your corner of the universe. Things like metric modulation, playing over the bar, halftime/double-time -- these are no longer things you have to first hear and mimic. You can actually practice and apply these.

I've been a teacher for a good long while, and I've never had a student that stuck with it and really got into the meat of reading and writing that DIDN'T have some kind of existential experience. It's like they hit a certain point and their brains open up and all of a sudden music is something entirely more fascinating than three chords and a lot of bashing. They start hearing MORE in the music they listen to and crave to be exposed to all kinds of new things.

There's a story one of my old sociology professors tells of an archaeological dig in Europe. The diggers found a dinner-table-sized pyramid made of stone. It was once very sharp at the tip. They could not for the life of them figure out what it was for, but felt bold enough to make broad assumptions, they surmised it was possibly:

- A sharpening tool
- The world's first melon opener
- An iconoclastic place of worship

It wasn't until the dig was moved about 50 meters elsewhere that they were able to conclude it was actually just the tip of an unusually large minuet or watchtower of some kind.

Summation: Sometimes you have to dig deep and in more than once place to get the right perspective.
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« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2007, 07:13 PM »

I hereby nominate Gadabout's post for "the post of the month!"
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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2007, 07:37 PM »

I like it, too!!
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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2007, 08:03 PM »

It's rubbish. 
 







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« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2007, 08:29 PM »

Summation: Sometimes you have to dig deep and in more than once place to get the right perspective.
Boy, isn't that the truth. I know, because I've had to do lots of digging. Many times I didn't find the answer until years later. Sometimes the answer was right in front of me, but I was too blind to see it.    Shocked   Well said.....   Wink
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« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2007, 09:04 PM »

Thanks everyone, including Chrisso, who's like my anchor. And by that I mean he keeps bringing me down.  Grin

Really really just kidding C-Dub. You know you're my brutha from anothu mutha (land).


When you only have time to make one post a week, you try to make the most of it!
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« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2007, 09:45 PM »

Wow, great posts Gaddabout.

I already had becoming fluent in reading music as one of my goals for 2008, but this really reminds me how much all the work developing this skill will be worth it in the end.
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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2007, 10:15 PM »

Right on Gaddy.  I'm not as advanced as you, but I can relate in a lot of ways.  I see the notes in my head.  Of course, I see donuts too...   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2007, 12:15 AM »

I've been reading music since I was 4 years old, so it's difficult for me to imagine playing anything worthwhile without being able to read music. That's whether or not there's music in front of you. When I play I "see" music in my head. I tend to notate as I go along.

Really, if you can't read music, you've missed out on these awesome perqs:

- Able to know meter when you hear it. Any meter, including changes.

- Quickly compile any drum part you hear. It's like the entire mystery is resolved. The more advanced your reading/writing skills, the less mystified you are by any drum part. You almost never have to go a message board like this and ask, "How does X drummer play Y part." Even if you are not currently capable of performing said drum part, you will at least be able to write it out and understand what is being played. That's pretty much my entire experience with any Vinnie Colaiuta chart

- Able to be more creative. There. I said it. If you can read/write music, you become more intimately aware of context of the music. If you can see in notation how the parts fit together, you will be less likely to get locked into rhythmic jail. Where there was once a finite possibility, you will see infinite possibility.

- Always know where "1" is. I honestly don't know how drummers exist in the professional world without this. I guess they just make a million mistakes until it becomes intuitive, but it comes 20 years earlier if you can read/write, without first damaging your reputation with important people.

- Be exposed to many advanced concepts that are simply not available to listening to music as it becomes available to your corner of the universe. Things like metric modulation, playing over the bar, halftime/double-time -- these are no longer things you have to first hear and mimic. You can actually practice and apply these.

I've been a teacher for a good long while, and I've never had a student that stuck with it and really got into the meat of reading and writing that DIDN'T have some kind of existential experience. It's like they hit a certain point and their brains open up and all of a sudden music is something entirely more fascinating than three chords and a lot of bashing. They start hearing MORE in the music they listen to and crave to be exposed to all kinds of new things.

There's a story one of my old sociology professors tells of an archaeological dig in Europe. The diggers found a dinner-table-sized pyramid made of stone. It was once very sharp at the tip. They could not for the life of them figure out what it was for, but felt bold enough to make broad assumptions, they surmised it was possibly:

- A sharpening tool
- The world's first melon opener
- An iconoclastic place of worship

It wasn't until the dig was moved about 50 meters elsewhere that they were able to conclude it was actually just the tip of an unusually large minuet or watchtower of some kind.

Summation: Sometimes you have to dig deep and in more than once place to get the right perspective.

Wow!

This is done....

Thanks Gaddy!!!

Hannah
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« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2007, 02:19 AM »

My first post!

Anyway...

I think reading is so critical. For me, it provides a "spatial sense" to technically understand what I'm playing. To think of note values on paper is the cornerstone of having good time, IMHO. Understanding how to read and count a phrase for instance means that my brain is quantifying time-- so there's no "guess work" about how to be on time when executing a fill, etc.

I also think that to really take your metric or polyrhythmic comprehension to the more advanced levels you really have to be a proficient reader as well. I can't imagine someone like Virgil Donati or Marco Minnemann doing what they do without understanding what they do on paper. Not to mention how much reading opens up limitless doors for education in different styles...
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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2007, 06:02 PM »

Yes, that was a very well explained post, it really does define a true TRUE drummer, if not a musician in general.  It's like all of my music teachers of all sorts from the past all putting their musical life lessons into one post. heheh ^^.  But it does really give motivation for me to really reach out more.

I loved the little metaphor about the digging, quite interesting if you put it into symbolic form.

And now that I think about it, from all the well known professional drummers I know, and from the people I know that talk about them all the time, are quite different from each other ironically.  There are those who specialize in time, others and great rhythms, others with reading music, and those who have great style.  And I guess it's just what makes them so great in the drummer world, their ability to do so well in a certain area of drumming.  As if I didn't know that already, but I really do understand the deep depths of that now. 

But, even then of course, all drummers should have some experience in all areas of musical requirements.  That's pretty obvious right there. Just like Gaddabout stated.

And I do try to improve, little by little in every area. 

And I'm still pretty young in my drummer years.  So I've got a ways to go before I can start to realize which area I'm fixing to really get into.  And lots to learn from people and my mistakes.

But enough about me, even I'm starting to get annoyed by myself. 

Reading music does give lots of information and knowledge to musicians around the world.  It has since the early times of it's birth.  It allows musicians today to play what was famed back then.  Sort of I guess, how the tradition of the Bible and God have been passed down since back when.  Kinda like a way to share one's idea to other musicians, and a guide for those having trouble.

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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2007, 07:50 PM »

. . . There are those who specialize in time, others and great rhythms, others with reading music, and those who have great style.  And I guess it's just what makes them so great in the drummer world, their ability to do so well in a certain area of drumming. . . .

Who are your favorites in each of those areas?
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