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Author Topic: "Rhiannon" - How do you guys play it?  (Read 615 times)
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CC Drums
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« on: June 30, 2008, 11:02 PM »

I have to learn this song by Fleetwood Mac today for a gig tomorrow.  I noticed on the original recording Mick plays the basic groove differently throughout the song.  Sometimes the snare is on 2, sometimes he puts it on 4.  I'm not sure if this was intentional or maybe  influenced by other substances.  Wink

On a 2004 live recording (Live in Boston), he's more consistent.  Anyone play this song?  How do you play it?

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p.s.  I think it sounds better on the 2.
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 11:12 PM »

I'll have to think for awhile on what I do; too late to think about that now.  Wink

Mick Fleetwood has always been known for meticulously working out his drum parts. I could be wrong, but my first instinct is to say that there was no "random" ... it all flows with the vocal phrasing.

As I'm typing this, I seem to remember that it may seem random, but it's not. I think I play it the way Mick played it in the original recording. A little analysis will show what I'm talking about.

I'll try to get back to you.
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 11:56 PM »

I would copy Mick's more consistent performance like in this video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XSFvYgFxttU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/XSFvYgFxttU</a>
If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for us.
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 01:46 AM »

On the live version Chris posted, Mick plays:
Verse 1: Snare on 4
Verse 2: Snare on 2 & 4
Verse 3: Snare on 4
Verse 4: Snare on 2 & 4
Chorus:  Snare on 4
Verse 5: Snare on 4
Verse 6: Snare on 2 & 4
Chorus: Snare on 4
Bridge starts out w/ 2 & 4.....I'm sure you can figure the rest out.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 05:02 AM »

While *I* would also strive to nail the part just like on the record, the audience likely ain't agonna notice/care if it's 2 or 4 or both.   Play the best you can for the song even if your part isn't perfect note for note.
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 09:37 AM »

Of course, by all means, do what works. No band member is going to come up to you because you didn't play this tune EXACTLY like Mick Fleetwood did in the original track.

I just listened to the original track ... and it's not as sporadic as you might think. Mick uses the Snare for his fills ... and that is just playing the additional backbeats. Why? Because the Tom Toms are already part of the groove, so by leaving out and adding the Snare drum backbeats, it creates tension and release.

I think JeepnDrummer's suggestion and notation from the live version would work just fine to use, and definitely much easier to memorize if that's what you need to do.

JeepnDrummer and I would call the sections differently, which isn't really a surprise because it's subjective. What he calls another Verse, I would call a Pre-Chorus because it sets up the Chorus and has a repeating lyric, unlike the Verse.

Here's what the original recording has for the Snare drum:

Introduction: When the drums enter (bar 5 of the 8 bar introduction) there's one full bar of Snare backbeat on 2 and 4; the remaining 3 bars have the backbeat on 2.

Verse 1 (8 measures) ... Snare backbeats on 2.

Pre-Chorus (8 measures) ... Snare backbeats on 2.

Verse 2 (8 measures) ... Snare backbeats on 2.

Pre-Chorus (10 measures) ... Snare backbeats on 2 & 4.

Up until now ... seems pretty normal to me. The only thing that was different was the very first measure of the drums entrance.


Chorus (16 measures + 2 measures extension) ... Snare on 4 (3 measures), Snare on 3 (1 measure Grin), Snare on 2 for the remainder of the Chorus with exception bar 13 and 17 which has Snare on 2 & 4 ... and bar 18 just plays a downbeat on beat 1.

Verse 3 (8 measures) ... Snare on 2 & 4 (1 bar), then on 4 for the remaining 7 bars.

Pre-Chorus (10 measures + 2 measure extension) ... Snare on 2 & 4

Chorus (8 measures + 2 measures extension) ... Snare on 4 (3 measures), Snare on 3 (1 measure Grin), Snare on 2 (4 measures)

Chorus (8 measures + 2 measures extension) ... Snare on 4 (3 measures), Snare on 3 (1 measure Grin), Snare on 2 (4 measures)

Chorus (8 measures + 2 measures extension) ... Snare on 4 (3 measures), Snare on 3 (1 measure Grin), Snare on 2 (4 measures)

Solo Chorus (and fade) ... Snare on 2 & 4

All of the last three Chorus' are the same, in fact there's only one other Chorus in the tune and that's the very first Chorus. It's a bit different in the latter half because it's extended; it doesn't repeat 8 measures.

In the last Chorus of the tune, the Guitar starts to solo in the last 4 bars, so from what I call the Solo Chorus (to fade), Mick goes to 2 and 4 on the Snare drum ... and even occasionally plays 2 AND on the Snare, which is more of an embellishment or fill than part of the groove ... even though it fits in the groove.

Notice how Mick consistently plays the Snare on beat 3 of the 4th measure of the Chorus? You see, it's thought out ... it makes sense ... it works ... and to me ... it's brilliant.

I'm not suggesting that YOU play it like this. I simply wanted to address that his drum part was well thought out and was not some random thing he did because of a "substance".

When I first moved to Nashville I was working with a cover band that played casinos, weddings, bar mitzvahs, dog fights, etc. This was the first time I had learned to play "Rhiannon". When I did, I always played it like the original recording with exception to the Solo Chorus because I was reacting and interacting with the soloist. I always kept the persona of the tune in mind however.

Since you have to learn/play this tune so quickly, you just need to do whatever you need to do. JeepnDrummer's notation is probably the easiest and quickest to learn. I just think the original recording is unique and very cool. It makes sense (to me) and love the creativity and artfulness of the part. It's not the norm or cookie-cutter, which makes it standout all the more.

EDIT: I just watched the live performance. The lyric is different in those "Pre-Chorus" sections, so I can see why you would call them Verses ... even though the music is different. No worries.
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 10:46 AM »

Thanks so much guys............this really helps me out.  I've been in this country cover band for the last 6 months and have been trying to learn all the material......about 80 tunes. 

It's kind of difficult because we hardly play some of the tunes so remembering them has been real difficult for me.  Since I've been in the band, we've only had 1 rehearsal.  I'm the kind of drummer that has to play them consistently to get them burned in the memory and the ole memory isn't as good as it used to be.

It kind of bugs me because the keyboardist can have charts but they pointed it out that it doesn't look good if the drummer is reading charts.

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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 11:11 AM »

It kind of bugs me because the keyboardist can have charts but they pointed it out that it doesn't look good if the drummer is reading charts.

Huh?! What's up with THAT!
They are nuts.
I can't tell you how many drummers I see looking to their left when the play anyway. So having a chart in the direction would "look bad"? Please.

Do whatever you need to do my friend. You can have charts and keep them out of sight. Learn the music so that you don't have to keep your nose in the music, but certainly having a safety net, given the situation you are in, is wisdom.

I think we all play better when we are at the point that we don't need a "safety net" ... but until then, don't you think it's better to have a chart and play the tune perfectly versus blowing the song because of a memory lapse?

I play some high profile gigs where it is expected that I know all the tunes (no charts), but they are PAYING me to take the time to learn those tunes and play them perfectly. If you have an occasional gig with the band, having a cheat sheet is completely understandable.
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 04:23 PM »

Huh?! What's up with THAT!
They are nuts.
I can't tell you how many drummers I see looking to their left when the play anyway. So having a chart in the direction would "look bad"? Please.

We see so many unfair comments made by fellow band members via Cafe members.
 Sad
I'm not a fan of charts on stage, so I would turn it around and suggest the keyboard player
learn the material!!!
I'm like CC Drums in that I have to play songs numerous times to learn them properly.
Really this whole situation is unfair (and uncaring actually). The drummer is expected to nail dozens of songs with no rehearsal and infrequently played.  Sad
The answer for me would be cheat sheets that I could write BIG and place on the floor near my hi-hat or tape to the bass drum top.
My usual cheat sheet is very similar to Bart's writing above.
I would abbreviate it a little more to save space. Like:
Intro = Sn on 2
Vs1 = Sn on 2
PC = Sn on 2
Vs2 = Sn on 2
PC 8 + 2 = Sn on 2
Etc
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 07:04 PM »

Lots of folks don't think a drummer CAN read charts. 

But if you can, and everyone is using charts--USE 'EM!!  If you don't need them, skip 'em.
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 02:41 AM »

Bart, I almost referred to the verses in question as pre-choruses, but since they didn't immediately precede the chorus, I left them as verses.  I also noticed the live version didn't follow the studio version.
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 05:57 AM »

Bart, I almost referred to the verses in question as pre-choruses, but since they didn't immediately precede the chorus, I left them as verses.  I also noticed the live version didn't follow the studio version.

I have been in situations where a Pre-Chorus doesn't always go to a Chorus, like in "Rhiannon". In the studio version, this Pre-Chorus has a pull harmonically, it sounds like you are going to a Chorus. The first time they don't go there, they go back to a Verse, but after that, they go to a Chorus after the next Pre-Chorus.

Labels are so subjective ... just like music theory; there are so many ways to spell a chord.

I try to listen to what's going on harmonically, plus the function that a particular section of music is serving. Some people might even call this Pre-Chorus a Channel because of how it funnels you to the next section.

I was really amazed at how different the live version of this tune is compared to the old original. I like them both. Ah ... creative license.  Cool
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2008, 04:09 PM »

Agree with the above.
Unless you are writing music for someone else, you can call sections whatever you want.
I most often call these sections a 'bridge'. It can be a bridge from the verse to the chorus, or a bridge back to another verse.
My most used terms for cheat sheets are: Intro, Verse, Bridge, Chorus, Middle, Solo, or Instrumental and Outro.
It probably has to do with the music scene I was brought up in. As long as I understand what I mean it's OK.
It helps to label like sections the same way throughout the song.
Therefore if one of the verses had no singing, I would probably write: Vs (Inst)
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2008, 02:30 AM »

Chris, I use a nearly identical notation system as you.  I learn several new songs each week between the two bands I play in.  Consequently, I've had to organize my "sheet music" using two full size binders.  This way, I can just pull the sheets for any songs we've played in the past.  My notes help out tremendously because I may not remember how a particular song goes, where I come in, any stops, tempo, etc.  Once I see my notes, everything usually comes back and I can play the song without looking at the sheet again.
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