robyn
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« on: January 23, 2008, 09:08 PM » |
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My DI gave me a copy of this essay by Brad Houser in Bass Player magazine. I wonder if Chrisso knows this guy, as he plays w/ Edie Brickell, among other bands. I thought it was a really great piece (altho I did "clean it up" a bit  ). robyn ~~~~~~~~~ Resist The Urge Having played bass for a long time, I have noticed some destructive tendencies among bassists and drummers: Gratuitous Fill Playing. That phrase alone pretty much sums up the entire matter, but let's dive a little deeper into it. A "fill" is just that: filler, not substance. It seems that most of us bassists and drummers throw in more fills than necessary. This tendency becomes especially acute during funk grooves, althought a lot of us over-fill in any style. Have you noticed that we tend to put in a fill every fourth bar, or every 16 beats? Almost all of us do it. But in a lot of African music, and in classic James Brown, the bass relentlessly repeats the same figure over and over. While some of you might think this is boring (I did at first), what actually happens is that a trance--an energy field--begins to build, which can and will produce an amazing feeling in the audience/dancers/musicians. There is nothing quite like it. In these situations, Gratuitous Fill Playing will destroy the trance and make you or me sound like Jackass No. 1. It will also piss off the dancers, and the bandleader will start cursing at you. As an instant remedy, I propose the quick fix of No Fills 16. Resist the evil temptation to put in that fill every 16 beats. Drummers, please avoid the dreaded groove-stopper fill and the obligatory cymbal crash on the next downbeat. It's as if I were walking down the street, and the...RED LIGHT! STOP! Then I need to wait for the fill to finish before I get to start walking again. Bassists do this just as often, and it is equally egregious. To illustrate, here is a little story: A few months ago, I was doing a jazz-funk gig. Big stage, huge low end. I noticed Fills 16 happening, as they usually do, especially coming from me and the drummer--although the whole band was in on it, resulting in kind of like a bunch of pathetic little ejaculations, draining away the groove's vitality. I caught myself ( No Fills 16, bitch!) and forced myself to stick to my bass line. Lo and behold, the band solidified, becoming more focused and coherent, as did the dancefloor. Wow! What a difference! I have also noticed that if I stick closer to my bass line and remember No Fills 16, when it comes time for a (gasp) bass solo, I have more energy and ideas available--and my fellow musicians seem to lend more support. Strange, but it works. Before you play a fill, ask yourself: Is it necessary? Is it contributing to forward motion, or is it a groove-killer? Wait...don't fill...wait...wait...build...breathe... wait...keep those shoulders down and relaxed...wait...okay, now drive the band into the next section with a powerful melodic idea. Have fun stripping away all the extraneous BS. Your fellow musicians and audience members will think you are a genius, and Miles Davis will be smiling as bright as the sun.
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 10:22 PM » |
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Some good advice ... and definitely a topic that needs to be discussed.
I think drummers play a lot of fills simply because they aren't listening. Musicians in general, nowadays, don't listen to one another or the overall ensemble sound.
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 10:42 PM » |
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. . . Musicians in general, nowadays, don't listen to one another . . .
I'm sorry, did you say something?  Seriously - that was a great essay. My mind immediately jumped to the incredibly tasteful drumming of Karen Carpenter, who IMHO, was one of the best when it came to placing just the right fill at just the right moment. . . and only where necessary.
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 12:26 AM » |
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I've met him a couple of times - played with him once of course.  His suggestion to try not filling every 16 bars is worth having a look at. I've done it for fun (practice) and professionally and it is harder than you think. Not too hard on a funk jam, but when you are playing a song it's almost compulsive to mark every section. Automatic. Sometimes when I'm recording I notice my hi-hat opening every 8 bars or so starts to bug me. The music might not demand it, but I still can't stop myself from doing it. I don't even know I'm doing it until I hear the playback. Interesting article.
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 01:12 AM » |
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Sometimes when I'm recording I notice my hi-hat opening every 8 bars or so starts to bug me. The music might not demand it, but I still can't stop myself from doing it. I don't even know I'm doing it until I hear the playback.
This is the mark of someone who's spent a lot of time listening to studio drummers or playing in the studio in the 70s and 80s. I almost say don't fight it because I've already given up!
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 01:31 AM » |
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I believe Ringo said in a MD article that he never liked to play fills doing a shuffle - the reason being that it messed with the groove. The one statement made me think a lot about the feel of the groove and how I play. This is why Ringo was so good - he was so sensitive that a slight disruption to the flow would cause him a lot of grief. Another way to look at this is that the fills or other "filler" stuff MUST draw attention to itself which can distract the listeners from the groove. Good essay Robyn, thanks for posting.
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 03:07 AM » |
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Let's not get too down on fills. The right fill at the right moment can lift a whole band performance, either live or in the studio. This is a good reminder to think about how you want to play something. Also a good reminder to keep working on your playing - in my case practicing not opening the hi-hat (disco style) every four bars. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 03:39 AM » |
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Personally, I play no fills by default. I only listen for clues in the music, and all the variations of the grooves (fills, crashes, hi-hat lifts, ruffs, syncopations et c) are based on that. If you think of it, there are LOTS of great songs that has no fills, not even cymbal crashes. Yet, I think a lot of us feel a bit scared of playing simple (I know I do). We're scared that the audience and fellow musicians are going to think we're lame-ass drummers, because we're not "playing anything". You have to be convinced that what you're doing is right, and the next step is to convince everybody else.
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 06:55 AM » |
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Great discussion. I definitely like how it all feels and sounds Much more when I cut back on the fills. However, at this audition I'm going to next week, I Guarantee I play more fills than I should.
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Louis
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 08:45 AM » |
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It is a coincidence that Robyn posted this topic. The past few weeks I have noticed that many of the older #1 hits were shorter songs. Most are less than 3 minutes and many are less than 2:40. Almost without exception these songs were totally groove with few drum fills. I was also trying to find reasoning in the fact that when the same musicians play live the drummer used more fills than on the recording.
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robyn
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 10:17 AM » |
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I'm glad for this great discussion! For me as a noob drummer, it's always been a source of anxiety to "come up with" different fills during a song, so that I'm not playing the same fill every time.  Reading this was actually a great relief, that, boy I don't have to come up w/ beaucoup fills every 4 bars--hurray!  One song we do w/ the praise band is in 6/8, the original (I'm very anal about copying the original as closely as I can when it's warranted) has a very simple tom pattern, kick on 1 and 4, w/ a few snare accents on the bridge, no fills, and ends w/ the only cymbal crash in the song. Very simple to play, but gives the song a wonderful Celtic feel and a ton of energy! The first time I played it this way, many people came up to me afterwards and commented on it. So I'm gonna work on this no-fills/frills thing, and see what happens when I do them less often. Altho many times my "fills" are just a hit on 4a, and that's it. robyn
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Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too, can become great. ~Mark Twain
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 11:42 AM » |
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I'm with Chrisso. Let's not get too down on fills. If a song is only 3 minutes- I want to hear something happen. I want to hear some drums and hopefully they will be hip! I also agree with the person whom said one has to be confident in their approach.
I've been working on our new record the past year and I have been taking a minimalist approach. I got flack from it when I first joined the band and some of the fans (now gone). But a year has passed and the band has a bigger, fatter and better sound now that everyone is starting to "get it".
I still want to hit the listener over the head with a sledge hammer though. So I'm marking the important changes in the music; playing simply but hard and precise/obviously grooving the best I can while implementing theme and variation and hopefully musicality. The latest song I've worked on is a culmination of this; I will have to post it here shortly to see what you cats think.
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2008, 12:07 PM » |
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My problem is I do this thing where I fill, but disguise it as part of the groove. Its a problem because I just cant stop myself.
Whenever I play and 8th note on the hihat grove I always sneak in some sixteenths on the hihat. Usually around "4 e &" sometimes around "2 e &". Measure after measure. My rationale would be that it helps the groove, or that since it is on the hihat it doesn't count as a fill, but a better guess would be that I can't stand dead air or can't maintain time without subdividing. So I try to be rock solid and simple in my 8ths, kick, snare, etc. But as soon as my mind wanders I'm doing it again.
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2008, 12:48 PM » |
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Hey, let's face it... playing fills is fun & exciting! What drummer would think not?  However, I lost a gig once b/c they told me I "over drummed" and played "too many notes" ... that was for a smooth jazz band... you know, that "elevator music" where there's lots of groove flowing but not much energy... and after I thought about that for a while I saw their point. That, for me, made me more aware that music listeners (as well as your fellow musicians in the band) prefer groove than "small solos", otherwise know as "fills" ... that experience taught me to focus on the musical experience instead of demonstrating chops... sometimes the music calls for a "short solo" and other times not... probably most of the time, in fact... Don't get me wrong... I do love playing fills... and they can add spice to a groove when used appropriately... the more difficult thing for a drummer to learn is when to play one...
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2008, 02:15 PM » |
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Al Jackson, Jr (great 70's soul drummer) would play song after song with no fills. I cover a lot of his stuff and have tried to emulate that.
My adult son is also a musician and has heard me play many times, in many different styles of music. He has started counting how many fills I do per song. A month or so ago, I played a soul tune... at the end he held up one finger. Seems I hit the small tom once in the song. Funny.
OH, I recently listed to the playback of a rock gig I did a couple weeks ago. My juices got flowing and and the groove suffered because I played too many fills and crashes. @$%#, see what trying to show off got me?!
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"Technique is only a means to an end. The goal is to play musically, but some drummers lose sight of this and approach the drums strictly from a technical standpoint. Often, they become so fascinated with speed that they miss the whole point of music." ~ Joe Morello
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2008, 04:17 PM » |
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I was also trying to find reasoning in the fact that when the same musicians play live the drummer used more fills than on the recording.
I've investigated this. My conclusion? The drum performance is less important to the enjoyment of the song on record than it is in live performance. On record the listener is focused on the song, the melody, lyrics and vocalist and then the backing (an amalgam of guitars, keys, drums etc). In live performance you have to add in energy, enthusiasm, dynamics and the visual experience. The audience wants to experience in effect the record plus. Over many years I've experimented with a stripped back, groove oriented live performance. On listening back to live recordings it often appears too clinical, too workmanlike. I also noticed my fellow bandmates were less engaged with the drumming. By contrast, with a slight ramping up of energy and a few more carefully orchestrated fills than the original recording, I find the audience perceives more enthusiasm, spontaneity, and a commitment to entertain (whether all of that is true or not). I also find your band mates appreciate a 'playing for the song' mentality in the studio and a playing for the moment, with energy and enthusiasm, attitude in a live setting.
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Louis
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2008, 06:27 PM » |
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I also find your band mates appreciate a 'playing for the song' mentality in the studio and a playing for the moment, with energy and enthusiasm, attitude in a live setting.
I guess it goes back to my comments in a thread about the Weird Al show. It was something to the effect of "Not only excellent musicians but great entertainers!" It must be that old adage of what the song requires and adding "at the moment".
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No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2008, 08:21 PM » |
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I'm with you on this, but I think the problem is in the interpretation(s) of playing "in the moment" Live drumming today seems to be much busier than the old days, in general, while the drums on record are still fairly simple, IMO. I guess the audiences have a higher tolerance for overplaying these days, or rather, they want to hear some chopsy drumming. Personally, I'd rather see/hear a drum solo spot, than hearing over-the-top drumming destroy the songs. But that's just me (who hasn't been to a concert since Steely Dan last July, on which Carlock didn't overplay)  Overplaying can be technically very subtle, you know? Let's say somebody is covering "Georgy Porgy" by TOTO. The drummer plays 2 & 4 with 16ths on the hihat, and then he adds the hi-hat accents on every 5th stroke, creating a "metric modulation". Now, that sounds really cool and interesting, BUT it's totally irrelevant to the song. Technically, it's a very subtle variation of the pattern, but musically, it's not. Likewise, I could come up with many one-bar fills that would fit the song nicely, although the original is much simpler.
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Louis
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2008, 08:29 PM » |
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I'm with you on this, but I think the problem is in the interpretation(s) of playing "in the moment" That is why music is art rather than a science; however some science can be practiced as an art.
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No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2008, 08:59 PM » |
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Hmm, when I think of overplaying (in the best possible way), I think of Mitch Mitchell, Ginger Baker and Keith Moon. Then in the 70's you had the popularity of jazz/rock; Gadd, Cobham, Mouzon, Simon Phillips. In the same era the emergence of art/rock; Yes, Genesis, Rush.
I think the drumming of today is some of the most pared down, least self indulgent playing I can think of. Especially since so many modern drummers have been influenced by machines and repeated groove loops.
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