What are "video games" if they are not part of our society? If I allow my child to spend hours every day in front of the TV playing violent video games ... isn't this part of "... what society implements into a persons brain." To me, it IS part of the environment you speak of; not all obviously, but definitely a part.

I've never implied that if you play violent video games or if you watch violent movies ... that you will go out and hurt or kill someone. I'm saying that it makes up part of the environment ... and that too much of ANYTHING is not healthy.

You are what you eat! If someone believes that a kid, if allowed to hang out with people poor moral values, you know what ... that's part of that childs environment, and it IS going to affect him/her in some way. I agree with balance ... and I also believe bad company corrupts good morals.

To me, it's not until a child has fully developed mentally, knowing right from wrong, good from bad, healthy from unhealthy, profitable from unprofitable, etc., .... that only until that time should they be allowed to indulge in the type of violent movies and games. Chances are that they won't even want to participate in this stuff. There are enough REAL LIFE examples ... I don't need movies and video games to show my son the dark side of life.

When I say "dark side" I mean DARK. I'm not talking about something that has a little violence, but rather grotesque acts. But what is "grotesque"? See we run into a problem here because SOCIETY dictates what this is! We've been desensitized to the point that we have a higher threshold than we did several decades ago. We are coming dangerously close to the point that as a society ... we will never be able to turn back. I could list numerous examples to support my claim, but it would take us down the political/religious path eventually.

Have you noticed that most of the people who have posted to this thread come from two different camps. Those opposed no longer indulge, those in favor ... still indulge.

Consider this:
All things are permissable, but not necessarily beneficial.

What's the benefit? Where's the fruit in it? How does it make you a better person? How does it help others?

Entertainment is fine ... but too much of anything can be bad. Do you really need the type of grotesque violence we are talking about here in order to be "entertained".

The television is full of violence ... not just the shows, but even the commercials for movies and video games. The whole World Wrestling Entertainment, Jack Ass, the list goes on ... it's all part of society ... and it's all desensitizing.

Nowadays, the only way I can make sure that my son doesn't get slimmed is I have to censor anything first, make sure it's appropriate, then allow him to experience that which is beneficial. It all seems backwards to me. I would think that our society would see that it's better that all things that are out in the open should be of a "beneficial" nature ... and anyone wanting to see violence, porn, dark side topics, etc., would have to go seek it out. Instead, I have to go andseek out whatis good, wholesome, beneficial, etc., .... and it's getting harder and harder to find such things.

Whatever side of the fence you are on ... I think the important thing is that you have thought it through ... and have reasoning to back up why you do what you do. If you are doing ANYTHING blindly ... I personally don't think it's healthy. I can always respect someone's position, regardless if I agree or not, if they can demonstrate, with factual information, WHY they believe what they do.

You bring up some good thoughts.

I don't like the word "sheltered" as that's a word used in a negative way when referring to how to raise a child. For instance, people saying that I would be "sheltering" my child if I home school them versus putting them in a public school. Typically people who make that type of comment don't know ANYTHING about what goes on in a home school environment ... but I digress.

Personally, I don't have to show my child or anyone the dark side in order to determine the difference between light and dark; good and evil. Like what MindWarp said, what I think is "right and moral" someone else may have a different view ... which is obviously the case. But like what I alluded to ... the gap in society between these moral definition differences has increased over the last 4 decades.

I'll make this last statement ... then give up the ghost.

The reason I said that I don't have to show my child the "dark side" in order for them to KNOW the difference is like the following:

When a bank teller is trained to distinguish counterfeit money from the real thing, how do you think they do it? Well, let me tell how. First, what they DO NOT do is try to expose the banker to every kind of counterfeit money that is out there. There are too many variables and differences that you could never learn it all. So what do they do? Well ... they intensely study REAL currency. They know everything there is to know about the REAL deal ... so when anything comes up against it ... and it doesn't match ... it's thrown out.

It seems a lot simpler to just demonstrate what is right and acceptable than to go into everything that is wrong or unacceptable. This way I can focus on the positive, and not have slim my kid (or myself) ... just to let them experience the negative. I DO think that as a parent, I need to talk to them about, and not just push it under the rug ... never addressing it.

My belief system is one that believes that a baby, as it comes out of the womb, knows the difference in good and evil. My job as a parent is to nurture the child, to encourage them, and help develop who they are based upon this knowledge. If a kid does something wrong, they know it. Know one told them to lie about their actions so they don't reap the consequences of their actions ... they do it naturally. What I have to do is help mold them, showing them what is beneficial and right ... and that theycan use their natural understanding of good and evil.

Sorry for the rambling. I just wanted to clarify my stance. I think I've communicated the fact that I have strong opinions about the subject matter. And like many of you, have a truck load of reasons why I believe what I do.

I am pleased to see that for the most part, we agree on the core issues.

Anything can become an addiction. This forum has been an addiction to me. I can justify all the time I spend here, as there is "fruit" being produced from it; but too much of anything can be bad. I have to look at what I COULD be doing if I wasn't here all the time! LOL

The words for 2003 should be "balance" and "moderation".

I'll let my child play video games, but in moderation. And the video games he does play, will be ones that I personally don't feel encourage, honor, glorify, or idolize violence. To balance this, I don't believe that just because something like guns are involved ... that this automatically labels a game to be violent. I'm a gun owner, and I'll be teaching my children about how to respect and handle guns. I'm sure this can open another can of worms ... but there IS a difference (in my mind at least). The difference being REALITY versus FANTASY. To me, if you live in FANTASY, your reality will eventually become skewed. If you live in REALITY, the FANTASY can be healthy entertainment.

The mixture of graphic horror & violence seems to be what bothers me the most.

It's so hard to explain all of this ... no less type it all. I should just stop before I write more than just one book. As you can tell, I have enjoyed talking about and debating this topic. Sorry for all the banter!  

I think they are a rotten form of entertainment.  And every second you are playing Quake you are not playing your drums.

Next time there are only 10 people at your gig, just tell yourself your audience is playing video games on a friday night.  And just wait until you lose a gig to a computer.

Some day all of this digital stimulation will implode upon itself, but it will have to get alot worse before it does so.

Uhmm ... but I didn't say that ... obviously ... but nice try ... smart guy!

And actually, what you are trying to do with my post actually does work too. They first study the real thing before they can know when something is not right. How can they know it's a disease if they haven't first studied a healthy body? How do they know it doesn't belong there? How can they study something that doesn't exist yet?

Nice try ... but your response doesn't really work the way you wanted it to.

The point I was trying to make ... and I AM a very smart guy by the way   ... is that you have to FIRST study the real thing before you can make any comparisons. If this is not done, you have no guide, no constant, no control as to what Truth is or what you are trying to access.

There's always something new popping up; there's no end to new diseases.

I don't have to study disease to know it's a disease, or that it doesn't belong in the body. You study the body to learn what it SHOULD be ... a whole, healthy individual. Doctors study disease for the purpose of giving an accurate diagnosis and treating the patient ... NOT to figure out if it's bad or not ... or that it doesn't belong there.

Also, your parallel between counterfeit money and disease doesn't work because with the fake money, it's simply thrown in the fire. We can hardly do that with someone who is sick or ailing.

So surely you don't think we would take your bait either did you?  

*ahem*
*begins in his best Lambchop impression*

This is the thread that never ends.  Yes it goes on and on my friends.  Some people, started posting their opinions graciously, but they continue posting and it's starting to bug me this is the thread that never ends......
Sorry everyone, I just couldn't resist.  This ones been wanting out for days.

And what about violent games that do teach good morals.  Games with adult themes that do the same.  I personally know that I play Final Fantasy because it is like reading a book.  Not all games are Quake and Bloodkillers 2003 (or something to that extent).  However, games are just now becoming more realistic.  Not in the sense that we have zombies and evild emons lurking in the world, but in the way they present these evils and the way that we tackle them.  Wow, I don't think I have a case.  Well you could be doing something better than entertainment, but why on your spare time not have fun.  If you said playing drums is fun, then that is also what I would define as entertainment.  Yadayada... Sorry...  

    One point no one has brought up is the fact that video games are interactive, so you are actually engaged. I can guarantee that some peopel in here who are bashing video games are guilty of turnin' on the tube and zoning out on their la-z-boy. I personally do not spend much time doing either, because between the 2 hours a day i spend drumming and the 3-5 hours of homework i have there isn't much spare time. When I do have free time I normally play video games, most of which are more entertaining that TV. When I watch TV it's just stuff like seinfeld, the simpsons, SNL, late night with conan o'brien, etc. So for those of you who have never tried video games, I recommend you at least give them a try. You might discover that, after watching your beloved cleveland browns go down to the steelers, it is very satisfying to re create that game on the Xbox and beat the snot out of the Steelers. Or, after watching some cheesy police drama on TV you might discover you have a knack for solving mysteries and breaking up crime rings on James Bond: Agent Under Fire.
            -mark

This should be a fitting ending to this entire discussion!