DRUMMER CAFE

Authentic jazz players, I could use a consult:

As some of you know, I'm trying to learn some jazz drumming, and I'm in
a non credit jazz ensemble course at a college.  The instructor is a trumpet player.
Very good player, very good instructor, but I'm sure he doesn't know a ton about
drumming.   

I joked here because earlier in the course, he got on me for too much bass drum.
He was right at the time.  It's certainly, at this point, easy for me to get carried away and change from *feathering* to pounding. 

But outside of technique, for a typical swing tune, what is the drummer doing with the bass drum?  On recordings, and in the books, what you see stressed is the syncopated, easy to hear bass drum accents.  But is there Frequently feathering of the other whole notes throughout?

Bottom line for me: while playing in this ensemble, if I stop a regular pattern of feathered notes and only use the bass drum for the accents, it feels like the bottom completely drops out.  Part of it might be that the bass player in this ensemble - a good player - is playing electric, not upright, and he's not moving a whole lot of air.

So, can someone describe Typical bass drum playing in a swing tune? 
Thanks.

What diddle suggested is good.

Listen to what the bass is doing (or should be doing) and compliment that. If playing a two-beat or walking bass line, the Kick and feather that as well. Kick has more of an important role time keeping wise within the Big Band genre than it does for combo Jazz. Although your ears and what's needed musically is always the best rule of thumb.

In small groups I often times do not play the Kick for time keeping, so no feathering, just syncopated accents and rhythms. If you want some of the legends play, you might notice this as well, however, they might feather the Kick drum when using brushes, which really creates and nice movement and drive to the feel.

Experiment and see what sounds best for each given song. There are no hard fast rules, except you don't want to be heavy with the Kick when keeping time.

In Rock, the feel is built from the ground up ... Kick and Snare are the driving force. In Jazz it's built from the top down, with the HiHat and Ride being the driving force. That's just a generalized concept and certainly not the only approach, but it is the most common.

FYI ... the idea of the Kick drum pulsing along with the walking bass dates back to a time when the Upright Bass was not amplified. The feathered Kick drum, being felt more than heard, assisted the bass player's pulse and helped to drive the band. If you play in a Big Band, the horn players will feel the pulse (rather than hear it) from the feathered Kick drum pulse, coming up underneath them ... laying a foundation for the overall feel.

Agree on the "thump"-sound, although, I've heard Steve Gadd and Ralph Humphrey "feather" the bass drum on record using this kind of sound, quite effectively. I guess the thing to stay away from is the "click"-sound in the attack, by not tuning too low or use hard beaters and impact pads.

Frank,  an you bring your own BD pedal or, at least, a lambs wool beater?

I play a lot of jazz, both big band and small ensemble. I can go a LONG time in between BD notes.

IMHO - resist the temptation to lay down the pulse with the bass.  It's like Bart says, Top to bottom.  In fact, it may help to simply remove the foot from the pedal.  When you need a big bomb, lay it in there and it will really make a statement.  To help the band with timekeeping, make sure the chick on the hat is solid.  Work on the feathering and accents.  When I've heard drummers playing jazz and using a heavy foot keeping time on 1/4 notes or throwing in rock groove bass hits, it just sounds weird - one of these drummers is yours truly.

It's true, most people will tell you to get off the bass drum, in jazz music. It's two very different feels. If you do play it, it's very important that it's in perfect sync with the bass player and the ride cymbal.

Remember, if we're talking old jazz, more specifically 30's and 40's swing music, the bass drum was very important, for the reasons Bart mentioned. The thing is, on record, or old radio broadcasts, the bass drum usually can't be heard very well, since the frequency response is so narrow. Imagine recording the Benny Goodman band today, with a Yamaha Subkick on Krupa's 28" bass drum 

Wow, now that would be interesting.... weird but interesting....

Playing with an non-amplified bass makes a difference in how one would approach the Kick drum. I think this is where Billy Hart is coming from. In fact you can watch him on The Art of Playing With Brushes; he's playing a lot of Kick drum in his time keeping. The clip here at the Drummer Cafe is unfortunately of Billy playing Bossa Nova ... not Swing ... but if you purchase the DVD you'll see what I'm talking about.

You don't see any Jazz cat pounding away on the Kick drum when keeping time. This is why I would say that Jazz is built from the top down; the opposite of Rock. If you compare Rock with Jazz, and you use your ears, you can clearly hear the difference; old and current recordings. Perhaps if we lived in a time where big dance halls were still in vogue, and Big Bands were setting the tone ... sure ... you'd probably lay into the Kick drum; more than just feathering.

I think many young players are taught to lay off the Kick drum because they overplay it! They haven't been taught or don't practice feathering the Kick drum. Rock is the driving music genre in the world today ... not Jazz ... so young players tend to approach everything like they would Rock, and that's a mistake. They also tend to not listen; to the overall sound of the room or the other musicians. 

You know ... the bottom line in all of this, whether you play or not play the Kick drum, it all comes down to using your ears. Listen! If the bass player is giving enough volume or you just want to add more pulse on a Jazz tune, play the Kick drum! If the room or venue you are in isn't favorable towards low-end, and the bass player is covering that part of the spectrum nicely ... lay off the Kick drum!

I think if we spent more time LISTENING and playing what best suits the needs of the music, we would all be a lot better off. It seems like everyone wants the rules or methods, laying down some law, in substitution for having to listen and be musical. Developing your ear is key. What works best is governed by many factors ... all of which involve listening.

Or hiphop depending on where you are coming from. In either case, it is definitely a bottoms up world.  Sometimes I can't hear anything but the bottom in contemporary music - especially when it's propagated through the suspension system of the car next to me, to the tires, through the asphalt and back up through my tires/suspension and to my seat

Perhaps you are right. I guess the only way we would know for certain is to ask him what he fully meant by his statement.

Yeah, I don't know. He's said it several times in several different contexts. I've never gotten off my duff to get ahold of him and ask...

mf = mezzo forte   

I have to totally agree. Key word is still listen, and dynamics should be the result of what you heard compared to what you play. No matter what drums you're on or heads you have. It's still up to YOU, as you're the guy playing the music. Everything else just helps your quality of playing "in the moment." More than once I've heard good players make junk sound good. They made good gear sound even better. 

I like to use acrylic beaters and Aquarian kick pads on my bass drums no matter what genre I'm playing.  In small group or big band I lay off the bass drum the majority of the time, so that the drum becomes almost another tom, used mainly for accents.  Even then, it's often better to accent with the snare drum than the kick, and learning the differerence takes some time.

My big band leader hates a four on the floor bass drum, and we've had discussions recently on how I play that drum and what he wants.  We're not strictly a  swing band, but more of a jazz big band.  If playing quarter notes I'll definitely be feathering as softly as possible, and the hard beaters and kick pad don't get in the way of that.  It's also something I do only very rarely, and almost never with brushes.

Let the bass player carry the bottom, and only add reinforcement when it's necessary.  For example, my leader once requested that I drop in a kick on the first measure of a phrase in some songs to help delineate the phrasing and orient the band.  Again, not something you want to do all the time, but an occasionally useful technique.

As has been said so succinctly above, listen.  The music will tell you what to do.