DRUMMER CAFE

Someday, someday - my buzz roll will not be so sloppy.
I insist.   

I have been trying to work it more.  I think the best advice I have had most recently is:
do lots of practice at very, very  slow speeds, focusing simply on getting the most buzz out of each  alternating stroke. 

It's helping.  But, I'm not sure I'm holding the sticks in an optimal way for this. 
After lots of work, I think I now have a fairly clean, loose grip but I'm thinking there's probably an optimal way to be holding the sticks when going to the buzz roll.

Can anyone shed any light?

Out of all the 26 (original) rudiments I think the double-stroke roll is most important.  The key to developing stick control is being able to successfully play a double-stroke roll, practicing as a rudiment (open-closed-open style).  From this all things will come!  This rudiment is suppose to be an "open" style roll (very distinct notes). 

Once you have this down it is an easy migration to a buzz or pressed roll by tightening the fingers.

For drumset development, try playing an open double-stroke roll (played as 32nd notes) while maintaining a 1_&_3 pattern on bass and 2_&_4 on Hat.  Focus on keeping all limbs together... this is a great exercise!  Orchestrate hands around the kit.

didn't say that.


yes, Joe Morello's video shows that technique very well.

ok, I recorded a small example to demonstrate loose finger method vs tight finger method.

http://paullittlejohn.com/rolls.mp3

The point that I'm trying to make is that closing the fingers does not give you more bounces. Closing the fingers restricts the height of the stick rebound and forces the stick back down quicker, thus causing the Double Strokes to to be closer together. Closing the figures doesn't make you play more bounces, it just squishes whatever you are playing. So if you are getting a Buzz Roll by closing your fingers, there's actually more going on than just closing the fingers. If you hear a Buzz Roll, you must be allowing the stick to get more bounces while also closing your fingers, which would decrease the space between those bounces.

Perhaps this is just preference ... but I don't endorse teaching or approaching Buzz Rolls with the closing finger concept. To me the closing fingers make it easier to play softer or causes the bounces to be closer together; more rapid. It doesn't give me more bounces. I have to relax the fulcrum and allow the stick to rebound many times first. Closing the fingers decreases the space of those bounces. I can play a Buzz Roll using nothing but the fulcrum (ie. thumb/index finger or thumb/middle finger) and keep the rest of the fingers off the stick.

Well, at the risk of sounding very egotistical, I do know what I'm talking about here (not that others don't). I have a strong classical background and have studied with the Who's Who of teachers within the classic percussion arena, as well as having a music degree and teaching at the university level.

I can't hear what your teacher heard when he made those comments. My guess would be that you were pulsing your strokes, so he could hear a rhythm, or he was wanting you to play a Multiple Bounce Roll ... not a Buzz Roll. There IS a difference, although the term that each person uses to describe it can get VERY confusing. Multiple Bounce Rolls are typically more open sounding, while a Buzz Roll sounds more closed, like the ripping paper I mentioned earlier.

I think the bottom line is that each person has to do what works best for them and their bodies. We are all different, and there's a lot of different techniques that can be used to get the same result. There's very few things in life that one could say "there's only one way to do it".

If your rolls sound good, and your Buzz Roll sounds like a Buzz Roll, then who cares how you got the sound ... right? My argument has merely been on the approach from a teaching point of view ... and how to explain how to go about getting the results ... that's all.

If it works for you ... then that's all that matters. 

For me, in regards to holding the sticks and as already mentioned, stay relaxed and try to keep an open space between you thumb and first finger. Don't squish them together, unless this just goes against how you have always played. This helps me stay relaxed and get as many buzzes as possible out of the stick. To help in the learning process, try playing your stokes up and down as well as in a circular motion. This helps me get flow and also get more bounces.
I once read an old article written by guitarist Steve Vai, and you probably know how technical he is. He said that he would practice one thing, like one type of picking for an hour straight to get get honed in on it...trying that action as many different way you can. So I took that theory and played a buzz roll for a hour staight. I played loud, soft and anything I could think up to do different. My sticks never stopped for an hour. It seemed like forever....and I had to stay relaxed.

I think the tightening of the fingers comes more into play when you want to play loudly, or are trying to play you buzz strokes in some rhythmic time to stay in tempo. I would only tighten some for control purposes.

Just to be certain I want to make clear that I can play with all the fingers off the drumstick, using only the fulcrum ... not that I actually play this way on a regular basis. My point with all of that was simply to point out that all the fingers weren't playing a role in achieving the roll. They have purpose, but not that you have to use them in order to play a Buzz Roll.

Yes, Stick Control by G. L. Stone includes lots of roll excercises with odd subdivisions, both for the double stroke- and buzz-rolls. As mentioned above, they do a lot for smoothing out the sound of your rolls. In fact, I think rolls start to sound like rolls only when played with odd subdivisions, but that's just my opinion.

I dug out a very old MD issue with an article by Forrest Clark, who played percussion for the Los Angeles Philharmonic as well as recorded for Stokowski, Bruno Walter and Stravinsky (!) among others. It's a very nice article dedicated to "the roll". What I found most interesting was that he claimed to use exactly 3 strokes per hand 90% of the time for concert playing. It should be noted though, that he mostly played on a snare drum with gut snares - he said that with wire snares, he would use more pressure to achieve a "finer Buzz". I'm assuming that he played the roll independently of the beat, in other words no subdivisions, odd or even.

At one time I checked out a drum-o-meter, and played some really soft buzz rolls - I think it registered about 15 to 20 rebounds for one buzz, far more than I would have guessed.

Of course, playing a roll in a large concert hall and playing it on a close-miked snare drum in the studio are two entirely different things. The triple-stroke approach would likely sound VERY coarse-grained in the studio.