DRUMMER CAFE

I understand what your saying..

That coems from a lot of practice, but sometimes you want to move around inside time, maybe drag it a little, play it straight on top or push it a tad.. depends on the situation of course..

So in a sense you want to have a great sense of time, and be able to keep track of it at all times. Of course too you would want to keep time even though guitarist somehow lack that part of the brain.. lol j/k

Practice with your metrnome, but not only 1/4 and 1/8 notes, but set it so it's on whole, half 16th and even maybe 32nd so you can get a really great feel of the pulse and sub-divisions with in time.


Peace
Josiah

Let me preface by saying that I feel that we are all students when it comes to this. No matter how long you've been playing, no matter how good your internal clock may be .... we'll be spending the rest of our lives developing and perfecting our own personal timing keeping talents.

Although James asked for techniques besides working with a metronome, I wanted to briefly mention that I do spend a good deal of time with the metronome. If I'm working on warming up, hand exercises, rudiments, etc., I always try to have the metronome going. My attitude with this is that my mind and body get so accustomed to working with it, playing with it in all things that I do, that when I really with a group/band ... that same strong sense of time will come out in my playing.

I also spend a good amount of time playing along with recorded music. Playing with the radio or finding albums that have great grooves is a FANTASTIC way to develop your pocket. Unfortunately however, the other musicians will not follow you ... you are still following them. But if you can find the pocket of each tune, lay it down ... you will get the sense that the album has come alive and that everyone IS playing to your groove.

With all that said, I think the biggest technique to "developing that immovable sense of time"  is the mind. Having a leadership attitude and taking control is the first step, and really the key ingredient to laying down a solid pocket. You can spend every hour of every day practicing with a metronome, but if you play (what I call) limp wristed ... lacking authority in your playing ... then you will be influenced by your surroundings and time is going to move ... period. I feel that I can speak on this topic as this has been a problem of mine ... in the past hopefully!    I would be playing with good, solid time ... but when begin to question in my mind whether I was rushing. You know what happens ... I'd start to drag, thinking I was rushing ... when I wasn't at all. I was right on the whole time, but doubted myself and abilities. You can NOT do that!

The analogy I always use is what I call Driving the Bus. The drummer is in the drivers seat, determining where how to take each turn in the music, setting the pace, signaling for what's about to come next, taking all the passengers with him. The drums lead whether you want to or not, in my opinion. What other instrument in the band plays all the subdivisions? In most cases ... no one but the drummer. So by default, the drums determine the feel, phrasing and timing of the music. I could go on and on with my metaphors ... but I'm sure you get the point.

One of my favorite quotes; saw it on a bumper sticker several decades ago:


Every rhythm section player should tattoo that phrase on their arm! LOL  Or perhaps on the foreheads so everyone in the band could see!

You've GOT to have confidence when you play ... even if you are nervous as hell.

Back in 1988, I had the pleasure of working with Sam Moore (Sam & Dave) at the R&B Foundation Concert in Austin, TX. I had rehearsed with Sam the day before in which we worked up one set for the concert. I was excited and nervous all at the same time, not just because of getting to work with Sam, but because Bonnie Raitt and Stevie Ray Vaughn were on the same concert. At the gig, Bonnie comes out and sits in for a tune, and then Stevie Ray comes on and sits in on a tune. Oh my lord I was nervous. I was fighting the instinct to follow this GIANTS in the music industry, but I was able to keep my cool and just lead the band. I think what saved me was that my stage monitor was so bad, I couldn't hear well enough to follow anyone else, so I just dug in my heels and played.

This brings up my final point. For many years, when I was first starting to play professionally, I wanted to make the music feel good ... so I would do what I call playing ensemble. What I mean by this is that I would move around to fit with what was going on around me. The band would be together and the music would sound good ... but there was no real pocket. I can remember the EXACT place in time when I learned what was going on ... a little light bulb went off in my head ... and it was on a GIG!!!   Sorry to say that it happened the way it did ... but thank God it happened and I learned what it meant to play in the pocket. To make a long story short, it was a jazz gig (wedding band) and the trumpet and saxophonists where instructors at the graduate school I was attending at (I was a Teaching Assistant there). They turned around to me and said "hey man, go for it ... push it ahead." I thought to myself, what are you talking about. On a break, they came up to me and explained that when they were laying back that I was going with them, rather than keeping the time where it was at. WOW!!!!  For so many years I was being forced to follow someone else. They would try and tell me where they wanted the time to be, and would dictate it by HOW THEY PLAYED. This is so, so very bad. Not only did it damage my confidence, but I developed a habit of following (playing ensemble) rather than leading! That was 15 years ago, and I've never been the same sense.

Now I take an authoritative role in my playing. It doesn't mean I play loud or strong. It means that I say what I mean and mean what I say! No more playing mousey as my instructor called it ... back when I was an incoming freshman music major.

When I play now, I drive that groove right up the rest of the band's backside. Where I put the time & tempo is were it is. You follow me. If I rush or drag ... that's not the point; I'm leading this group ... you follow me. I'm always right no matter what.

This is the attitude (which sounds very arrogant) that you've GOT to have musically. You still need to be a nice person ... LOL ... but when it comes to playing, you need to have the eye of the tiger.  

Right on with your comments sidereal.

Hey now!  I (a guitarist) play right with the drummer at all times and that's the thing that makes it a rush for me is when we get that great interplay going!

Anyhow... I agree with sidereal that keeping to a strict tempo is not always the best thing for the song.  Our drummer has great time but he hates metronomes and click tracks and never plays to them - if he's working on his time he plays along with recordings.  We never use a click when doing our own recordings - our drummer is the frickin' metronome and that's as good a timekeeper as we want!

I think what Bart said is the most important thing: that sense of "immovable" time that makes a great drummer comes from playing with AUTHORITY.  If your time drifts a little but everyone is right with cuz you're taking the leadership role and setting the foundation - well, it's gonna groove anyway, unless the other musicians are completely brain dead, and if that's the case then everybody will know it's them and not you.  

--Lee

I think I put this thread a couple of degrees off-kilter with my use of the word "immovable" in the title.  I don't mean (necessarily) that one's tempo would never vary - I'm referring more specifically to drummers like...well, Dennis Chambers is the one who leaps to mind - guys who can just lay it down with the type of authority referred to in this thread.

I should have come up with a better word to describe the topic - of course, we're human beings, there's going to be some fluctuation, and there's a lot of music with a great "groove" in which the time does push or pull a little bit - and Bart referred to the idea of one musician playing ahead of or behind the beat, while another stays right on the beat (or one's ahead while another is behind, etc.).  

PS  Thanks for all the suggestions for how to work on this stuff, guys!  

Hey Guys,
I am sure you all know who Oscar Peterson is and ...I don't know who the drummer is on this recording but I can tell you that when I play this CD the first head is one tempo and the last head is a different tempo...usually a few clicks faster but man does it cook....I always use to tell the guys in the band that if a beautiful girl walked across the dance floor,I would rush and if an ugly one walked across I would drag.

 

Please do let us know how it goes Gaddabout.
This is really a great topic ... one that would should come back to again and again because when it comes down to it ... all the chops in the world don't mean a thing if the music doesn't FEEL good.

It don't mean a thang if it ain't got that swang!

Ernie, I think this is an EXCELLENT topic for another thread. I'll post it on the Musicianship board so we all can have a go at it. Great suggestion Ernie ... even if you didn't mean too!  

Here's the new thread for Working with a Singer or Pianist

[link]http://drummercafe.com/drummercafecgi/YaBB.pl?board=musicianship;action=display;num=1013274827[/link]

Did what I said was going to do yesterday, and it was a certifiable disaster!  

Half the problem is the band is used to following the guitarist, not the drummer, so with a keyboardist time is all over the place. This one tune required me to play a train, and I just plowed through everything at the same tempo we started at, just like the keyboardist asked me to do. Turns out the keyboardist really does have bad time! LOL!

To prove my point, I played the same song by myself to a metronome. I buried the metronome. I was dead on. Played the whole song and made the click disappear. Didn't even lose a inch in transition.

I'll be having some long discussion with the gang at the next practice!

here is something that I practice to try to get a more solid perspective of time...
    
       On a drum machine I program the latin 2/3  rhumba clave pattern.   I use this syncopated pattern as my click track for practicing.   Playing a straight beat over this pattern is not  too difficult,  but putting some slow triplets over it seems to be good practice since there is no 'one' as a reference, you have to listen to the pattern
as a whole.   Playing 6/8 time over this pattern is another variation... also try slowing the drum machine way down.

I guess my goal is being able to 'see' time as a grid...spread out in front of me, and just being able to put notes anywhere I want on that grid.

does that make sense???

peace
jamoflage