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Author Topic: Which jazz drummer do you consider to be supremely artistic?  (Read 1818 times)
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Smitty
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« on: April 01, 2008, 03:27 PM »

What drummer springs to mind in terms of artistic expression of an abstract quality?  I’m not thinking of technique except as it functions as a vehicle for taking your mind on an imaginative journey.  Which jazz drummer is the deepest artist that you can think of.  Elvin?  Tony?  DeJohnette?  Can you recommend specific recordings of artistic genius?
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New York Frank
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 03:33 PM »

I absolutely can't cite the Most artistic.  All I'd do is cite
a person among many who are truly artistic.

My latest *discovery* is - Jeff Ballard - Brad Mehldau drummer.
I have their Live CD, and it's just filled with great, very artistic
playing all around.

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Smitty
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 03:56 PM »

I absolutely can't cite the Most artistic.  All I'd do is cite
a person among many who are truly artistic.

My latest *discovery* is - Jeff Ballard - Brad Mehldau drummer.
I have their Live CD, and it's just filled with great, very artistic
playing all around.

You're right.  I modified the post to remove requests for opinions regarding the "most" artistic drummer.  I'll check out Jeff Ballard.  Thanks!
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2008, 05:28 PM »

It's so subjective.
And I'd hate to see this thread become another excuse to separate one type of drummer from another.  Undecided
However....
One drummer I very much admire in the jazz genre is Jack De Johnette.
He has solo albums on the ECM label where he plays the drums and piano.
The two jazz drummers fans most often talk about are Tony Williams and Elvin Jones. It does seem they broke a lot of new ground in their day.
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2008, 05:40 PM »


Essential Jazz Albums
is a list of great albums with great jazz drummers on it. Every one of them are artistic and special with what they do.

Here's a list of Top Drumming Albums In History; find the jazz drummers and check out these albums.
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2008, 07:13 PM »

As noted above, there are many for many different reasons.

If I had to name one that seems to fit what you are asking for, DeJohnette always springs to mind as someone whose drumming really challenges traditional concepts of time. Check out his playing on Inside Out with Jarrett and Peacock. They scrapped the standards at a live gig and just played a "free" set. Jack's drumming is just alive on that one.

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paul
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2008, 07:19 PM »

Roy Haynes
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boomka
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2008, 07:41 PM »

There are so many...

DeJohnette, Paul Motian, Sunny Murray, Han Bennink, Jeff Ballard, Brian Blade, Jeff "Tain" Watts, Roy Haynes, Ed Blackwell, Ralph Peterson - those are all guys that I've listened to for a conceptual kick in the pants...

But then again there's nothing more artistic than Ed Thigpen laying it down with some brushes. So "inside" that it's transcendent. Only the 'correct' notes, every time. That's sublime...

There are so many...
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2008, 07:50 PM »

as chris notes, it's totally subjective. and i would argue that no one is the 'most' anything. but, in jazz, there are so many drummers who have recorded so many uniquely artistic moments.

of course, jack, elvin and tony may come immediately to mind. they are/were leaders and composers, as well as time keepers. what a legacy they have all created! i had the opportunity to interview elvin and tony back during my many years as a newspaper jazz critic. (very prickly guys, too!!!!!)

i think of max roach, who i saw perform on several occasions in his later years, including his always amazing demonstration of just how much could be done with a hihat and only a hihat. max practically invented bebop drumming. is that artistic enough? Wink

i think of art blakey, whose press rolls were for the ages.

grady tate is another whose work is everywhere, but without the high profile. listen to him on the stan getz album, 'sweet rain.' that is artistry, indeed.

i think of sonny greer, duke's drummer for almost 30 years. his kit, from the 30s, is amazing, so ahead of its time.. and his sound was symphonic.

you can go on and on about artistic jazz drummers....but i wont. Cool

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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2008, 10:58 PM »

To be honest, I think any drummer who can play Jazz well is very artistic. That may be because I can't play Jazz very well at all, but I just find it amazing at what kind of things that drummers in the Jazz/Swing genre do.

As far as just picking one, the first ones that come to my mind are the Jazz legends, such as Buddy Rich and Tony Williams.
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2008, 12:33 AM »

I've gotta second the note for Roy Haynes -- I just love his playing. Interesting even when I've heard it for the ten thousandth time. (I think that's how many times I've listened to We Three before).

There are the obvious names -- Art Blakey, Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Art Taylor, Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe, etc etc... but I think to listen to jazz just for the drums is missing the point. Yeah, there's some tremendous, unbelievable talent there -- listening to Tony's ride cymbal or Elvin's concept of time is just amazing. But there's so much going on and I personally think it's far more interesting to find those recordings where the whole band takes off into the stratosphere.

I'm not trying to do the jazz snob thing and say, "you're listening to it wrong". Because I know by whatever standard of the moment someone wants to embrace, I'm listening to it wrong. All I know is, these guys -- not just the drummers -- could PLAY.. and the dude hitting stuff with sticks is doing some hip stuff, but then again, so were Miles and Coltrane.

Really.. there's so much stuff out there. Bart's list is a great start. If you need four albums to blow you away, here are the ones that did it for me:
- "Four" & More - Miles Davis (Tony Williams). You will appreciate this much more if you know Kind Of Blue well.
- We Three - Roy Haynes. Adventurous. Playful. Smooth.  Keeps me coming back for more.
- Free For All - Art Blakey. I thought I got Art, then a friend dropped this one on me and it blew my mind. Moanin:With The Beatles :: Free For All:Sgt. Pepper's.
- Live At Town Hall - Thelonious Monk (Art Taylor) -- Taylor just kills it.

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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 02:20 AM »

Chonson, you make a good point about embracing the genre as a collective artform. In defense of the OP a bit though, understanding a type of music we are somewhat new to usually starts by latching on to what is familiar first. I know when I started playing jazz my favorite albums were the ones with my favorite drummers. Hell, I'd listen to Chick Corea's Now He Sings... over and over just to hear Roy's ride.

But yeah. You make a good point to keep in mind.
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 11:21 AM »

i had the opportunity to interview elvin and tony back during my many years as a newspaper jazz critic. (very prickly guys, too!!!!!)
Man, I got to hang with Elvin for a week and I had just the opposite experience. He was one of the most open, warm, involved human beings I've ever met. This was at a 3 week master class he was doing down in Florida, mostly drummers, but the last week he was looking for some rhythm section players and I went down. I was a young sprout and didn't really practice upright much (still doubling on electric bass) and here I was playing with Elvin and a bunch of his students about 8 hours a day. The second day into it I had these HUGE blood blisters on my right hand. Now I didn't say anything, being kind of embarrassed and all, but apparently Elvin noticed and, when we all reconvened for the afternoon session, he comes up to me with a jar of Mentholatum and grabs my hand and starts rubbing this stuff into the blisters, telling me that stuff like this used to happen with Jimmy when they were doing long tours and this helped keep the skin soft so the blisters wouldn't break too early and you had a chance to get some callous going under them and that the menthol helped take some of the pain away.
Now here's this guy who's just a giant in this music and he's just so human...

There are a LOT of memories like that from that week that I'll carry till I die.
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2008, 12:09 PM »

all the legends [tony, buddy, billy c., jack, elvin, philly jo, etc] became legends for a reason. they added new things to the vocabulary of drumming and language of jazz. so i love all those guys, but with the exception of jack, tony and some billy c., i haven't studied all the greats so extensively. my only gripe with jack is that his (latter-day) groove is not always so deep. but that's okay; he's more of a free player, which is his strength and which no one can imitate.

but when i think of the newer players [even though they've been playing for well over 2 decades], i always go to tain watts and terri lyne carrington, because to me they've raised the bar on multiple levels--technique, musicality, improvisational inspiration/brilliance, "chops" [i know, i know], overall ferocity on the kit and deep knowledge of jazz tradition.

tain's last album with branford marsalis, 'braggtown', goes to new musical depths. i listen to it at least twice a week. tunes like 'blackzilla', 'hope' and 'fate' showcase tain in all his glory, from biting, provocative out-there stuff to soulful, introspective 'ballads.' tain gets deep, deep, deep into the melody, and re-states it in very original, unexpected ways. i also love his work on 'crazy people music.'

i went to check him out i think in january, for this semi-solo performance he gave at a small club in nyc. it was in part a tribute to max roach, whom tain idolizes. he did 'the drum also waltzes' intro [and joked about how he only knows 3 things from roach's vocabulary], then took it way, way out. then he did a drum/piano duet with this woman who was sitting in the audience [am totally spacing on her name], who had a real cecil taylor-like quality to her, so that got real out-there, too. then he did some quasi-rap and more 'inside' modern/blues/rap/spoken word jazz stuff with a few fellas from his ebonix group that rocked. the whole thing went on just over 3 hours and i was rapt the whole time. i've got a tiny bit of video footage that maybe i'll get on here at some point. [i'm not big on bootlegging stuff, so i only took a wee bit, for my own indulgence]. there were only like 10 people (!) there so i was able to chit-chat with him. very sweet man.


terri lyne has been a prodigy like forever, and the big thing that always stands out to me about her is her musical intuition. talk about being in the moment, man. she's at that level where she anticipates what another player is going to say, and when she responds to other players, she does so in very articulate, and often very surprising ways. she also has the sickest singles--they may even be faster than tony's. she lays in blazing 64th notes at every turn, and it never sounds contrived or out of place. amazing snare/foot/hi-hat combos, too.

i love her playing on the 'structure' cd with jimmy haslip and greg osby. one tune in particular, 'fire'--says it all. she opens it up with a blazing solo and goes into a really uptempo off-beat jazz ride/bass drum pattern that makes way for the tune. i have to hit rewind everytime i hear that, just to hear the intro. THAT deserves to go into a 'best drum intro tunes' biography, for sure. it's on her myspace page, so you should check that out.

i also like a lot of her work (namely 'flat-out') with john scofield, even though his tone occasionally drives me frickin' insane, cornelius kreustch [few tunes on 'drop kick'], and she's toured extensively with wayne shorter and herbie hancock, which i'm so sorry i never got to see. also haven't gotten that rachel z. album she played on; rachel z. rulez like ozzy, so i'm sure it's kick butt. tlc has a few solo albums, but with the exception of 'jazz is a spirit,' some of them cross over into a smoothy/poppy realm that doesn't really do it for me. she has a haunting voice, though, which is showcased on 'voice and music.' she does a cover of 'ethiopia' on the structure cd that gave me chills.

btw, it's not great form, but i gotta say it: she has totally revamped her image and looks positively ab fab these days. she always had that pretty, demure, almost tomboyish vibe, but now she's let her inner woman come through [without looking trashy] and i think it makes her shine that much more. i am ready to go get my hair and make-up re-done so i can look like her. lol!

so yah--those are the two sometimes lesser-discussed jazzers that float my boat. i love smitty smith, too, but it seems he's been so musically dormant as of late, i can't say nothing. i'd love for him to come to ny and tear it up. gary husband is also a huge hero of mine; amazing player, but i think i love him more so for his emotive and compositional skills--he is a phenomenal drummer and pianist, and to hear his rendition of 'softly as in a morning sunrise'-- playing both instruments--is enough to make you throw down your sticks forever.


i was gonna go on a diatribe regarding the phrase "artistic expression of an abstract quality" but i blabbed too much already. main thought: what once seemed abstract to me doesn't seem so abstract anymore, but very logical.


ok. i am typed-out.



**splat**
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Smitty
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2008, 01:28 PM »

Smoggrocks:

Thanks for that great and informative response!  I think I need to hit the record store or Amazon and grab some of the music you recommended!

On edit:  Thanks to all of you who have responded so far!  I'm getting so much out of this thread.  I've been a fan of jazz for nearly 20 years, but now that I'm older (nearly 40), I'm really starting to love jazz.  And once I discover that I love something, I just immerse myself in it.  Interestingly, I can't play jazz drums, and my love of jazz drummers is almost from a non-drummer perspective.  I really have no desire to become a jazz drummer. I'm content just listening to the great jazz drummers within the context of the overall music.  One of the reasons I love jazz is that it makes me think of one of my favorite places in the world — New York.  Great jazz often transports me to Greenwich Village at dusk.  Jazz provokes such a sense of “urban nostalgia” in me.  That probably sounds bizarre, but there it is!
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2008, 03:32 PM »

you're welcome, smitty.

i know what you mean about the greenwich village thing. new york or "east coast"-flavored jazz definitely has a vibe all its own. to me, there's a kind of sadness and desperation to it--an urgency. i dig that aspect of it.

as for playing jazz--you don't have to become superbad at it, but learning some "jazz voicings" on the drums might add some flavor to your own playing. not sure what style you play, but if it's rock--well, you probably heard the old adage: jazz took a poop and rock was born. there's underpinnings of jazz in a lot of rock. at the simplest level, i was always surprised at how few of the local rock drummers i used to play alongside would incorporate triplets in their playing. to me, that adds such a great feel to rock music, especially when you mix it with 16ths.

the other thing i love about jazz [now that i'm getting 'up there' myself] is that age and style is not a barrier. you don't have to look superhip or like a model to belong. it's a very embracing music and community. i know some of the younger jazzers are being marketed as hipsters, but when push comes to shove, it's the music that's the focus.


enjoy your musical explorations!

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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2008, 04:20 PM »

I've been a fan of jazz for nearly 20 years, but now that I'm older (nearly 40), I'm really starting to love jazz.

Me too.  The Love is Growing.   

I like listening to music at night, while falling asleep.  I recently *discovered* a jazz channel on cable.  It's all music, though.  No videos, just a picture of the artist, identification of the song and album, and the music.   It has exposed me to a Ton of stuff I haven't heard before.  And honestly, some of it has been - breathtaking.   I'll be half asleep and wake up to something that's practically bringing tears to my eyes it's so beautiful.  I try to make a mental note of the song and artist so that I can chase down the track when I wake up.  Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.   Smiley

But really - for people who really music, love the arts, and love tasting the joy of improvisation, there's probably nothing sweeter than jazz.
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Smitty
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2008, 04:21 PM »

as for playing jazz--you don't have to become superbad at it, but learning some "jazz voicings" on the drums might add some flavor to your own playing.

Absolutely!  My straight-ahead rock/surf-punk drumming could use some swing!
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2008, 02:30 AM »

God I love jazz. I've begun to realise what an amazing genre of music it is. It's so incredibly personal. You can tell who's who just from their playing/tone/etc. You don't have to read the cover if you've heard the artist enough before. It's great. And there's always a different way of listening to it, so it's hard to get sick of the songs.

On the topic of great jazz players outside of drummers, one person that's always fascinated me, and clutched ferociously at my attention is Herbie Hancock. Yet I can't quite put my finger on why!

The other day I was listening to a Stan Getz song, Lester Left Town. And noticed the really awesome rhythmic quality of the piano and it's relation/reaction with the drums. I can't quite find the words to describe what I mean, but it was really awesome. I'd love to know who played piano and drums on that song because it was on a compilation CD and didn't say.

(I don't know who Stan Getz is because I'm a bit of a jazz noob, so sorry if Stan Getz IS the pianist.)
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New York Frank
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2008, 05:27 AM »

... And noticed the really awesome rhythmic quality of the piano and it's relation/reaction with the drums...

I have been noticing this recently, too, listening to how Mehldau and Ballard play together.
You can literally hear the conversation at times.  It's incredibly interesting.
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