redrzewski
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« on: April 04, 2008, 12:35 AM » |
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I'm working thru exercises on independence, and I'm wondering what your mental process is like (once you've reached good independence).
I'm a decent music reader, and I can read 4 part Bach fugues on piano, for instance. So while it takes some getting used to, its not that much different reading 4 part independence exercises.
How far can you take this? For instance, once you're good at it, can you really think (improvise and vary) all four limbs completely independently? The exercises I'm working on tend to ostinato (groove) 2-3 parts so that only a couple vary at a given time. This seems much more doable.
Or in practice do you tend to ingrain it into muscle memory such that your aren't really thinking (improvising) all 4 parts at once?
Currently, I have difficulty focusing on more than 2 parts at a time. I can play all 4, but I'm primarily only listening to 2 parts. The other 2 get ingrained in muscle memory, and are not getting much conscious thought.
I want to take this as far as I can, as the independence aspect of the limbs really fascinates me. So I'm curious how far this goes.
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diddle
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 01:32 AM » |
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Or in practice do you tend to ingrain it into muscle memory such that your aren't really thinking (improvising) all 4 parts at once?
Yes, its more like that... learning to play drums is all about muscle memory development. For example, playing a typical jazz groove involves setting your right hand in motion playing the swing beat (ding-ding-ah-ding) in "auto-pilot" with your left foot playing the back-beat on 2&4. The creative aspect comes in with your left hand on snare and your right foot playing accents. That would be 4-way independence. I'd say most rock grooves are probably 3-way independence. An example of this is playing straight eights on closed hats with right hand while your left hand plays back beat on 2&4, and right foot playing a bass pattern.
How far can you take this? For instance, once you're good at it, can you really think (improvise and vary) all four limbs completely independently?
Yes, if you work on it you can certainly improv on all 4 limbs! That might take years of development. |
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Antman
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 02:51 AM » |
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You can also play what sounds like improvising on 4 different limbs by putting together patterns which involve all 4 limbs, but you already know each grouping. Then you might keep say the bass part in your head, or some sort of reference point, and put together these different patterns that you've already developed.
This is something that'll probably come easier after a few years of not worrying about it, as you'll find you've already developed a bunch of little patterns over time.
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Nuclear
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 03:05 AM » |
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The goal of limb independance is getting to the point where what you hear in your head can be achieved without a mental breakdown  It's not so much that you are improvising with each limb - you are improvising on the drumset as an instrument. If you want to add a sound, the necessary limb needs to have played that sound before enough times to execute it on demand. |
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 06:08 AM » |
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Just a little word of advice: Whatever you can do or whatever you achieve as far as independence goes ... you need to be able to really lock in and groove. So much of what I see/hear that demonstrates "independence", especially on YouTube these days, has no pocket or solid groove to it. If you can't play so that other musicians can groove with you, or even you lock in with a metronome ... what's the point? It's all a bunch of pyrotechnics and gymnastics that in the end, means nothing as far as music is concerned. All that independence won't get you one gig if you can't groove and establish some sort of pocket. If you plan on playing solo all your life, then you don't need to listen to what I'm saying.  So go for it! Work on being as independent as you can or want to be ... but make sure that whatever you can play can also really groove! |
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redrzewski
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 01:00 AM » |
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Thanks all. This is exactly the guidance I was looking for.
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Jim P
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2008, 07:53 AM » |
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Good point Bart,
But even players who make a living playing solo. Tony Verderosa "VFX" can groove his but off with a band. He was a monster big band player when he was in college.
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Absolut
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 09:31 AM » |
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like some people pointed out, and I agree with this, the point of independence is to be able to play what you can hear in your head, to be able to express yourself musically and to your fullest on your instrument. practicing your independence can definitely help with this. for example, my drum teacher gave me a great independence piece, well, more of just a groove that loops over and over again.
basically, take a songo. a standard songo that uses the two hands and your bass drum. not too hard, is it? well, he suggested putting a 3-2 clave rhythm on the left foot (for me, the hi-hat) it was a nice little brain teaser for the two of us to figure out, and it took me ages to be able to play on demand.
but now that I can play, it makes all my limbs that much more independent, so I can express myself a bit better. IMO, it's worth the effort.
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dea
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 01:31 PM » |
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Mastering independence is a requirement if you want to be a great ( vs. okay or good ) drummer.
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George
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 03:03 PM » |
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I studied and practised independence as a beginner very many years ago. I played and practised from notes, and I was never satisfied with what I could achieve. But that was a good base for what I'm doing now (as a returning drummer after a very long break).
Now I learn songs with a headphone on my ears, and when I'm quite OK with a thing, I may sometimes look down at my right foot and wonder what it's doing with the bass drum pedal while my hands are playing, let's say, a triplet - and I'm kind of satisfied how independent my limbs can be without caring too much for this.
Independence is really somewhere in the hind parts of your brain; first you may practise consciously to develop it, but later you just have and do it without any serious thinking about it.
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RHSquonk
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2008, 09:12 AM » |
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I also agree with Bart about not loosing the groove factor.
As far as Independence, there's also a factor of interdependence on your limbs that help bring the groove together IMHO.
I think a fine example would be Thomas Lang who certainly exudes independace (being the time keeping cyborg that he is), but he ALWAYS has the underlying groove there to make what he plays coherent and stays in the pocket.
~RHS
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"I live in that solitude which is painful in youth, but delicious in the years of maturity" - Albert Einstein
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