DRUMMER CAFE

OK - I guess I'll jump into this fray....

Chris - as to Jeff's claims regarding his contributions to slap bass playing back in '79-ish, considering that is 29 years later, to even call them pioneering (to modern bassists) is pretty reasonable. He didn't (and I don't think is claiming to have invented the concept of the slap bass) but during that period of time he did raise the slap playing bar to a height that hasn't really inched up much since (again impressive after almost 30 years)

And Bart - I don't think he's claiming (at least didn't in the article) to have never used the metronome.

But don't get me wrong - Jeff can be a pretty prickly guy - at times a borderline a-hole. So I'm not at all being "Oh poor Jeff", cause I'll really don't care. In fact we've bumped paths in the past, and it was never fun, nuff said. Monster player though.

But there is an aspect to what he is "over-stating" that I very much agree with.

And I think it's possible that I came to this feeling around the same time he might have - as we both spent time teaching at MI in the 80's. Now at MI, every student there was required to have a Dr. Beat or some such metronome and of course, were instructed over and over to practice with them.

Now IMO the thing with metronomes, is that they are wonderful for the student that has learned to hear what they are playing and compare it against a model, a yardstick, a standard or how ever Bart put it so well. Get an exercise or a passage in your grasp, and then turn on the metronome at some tempo BELOW the tempo you can comfortably play the passage by yourself and work out the bumps. Then start the progression, of inching the metronome's tempo up (or down), always being sure to listen for no back-sliding on your already achieve accuracy.

I'm sure most would agree - with personal variations - that the above demonstrates how useful the metronome can be.

But the problem that I observed while walking the practice rooms at MI (and the Grove School after that) was students basically not doing that. Of sure, they were doing what they were told. They were practicing with their metronome. In fact, they were running it almost all the time. Whether they could barely play the exercise or not.

And they're almost always running them too fast. And with little sense of the degree they needed to be listening and analyzing their performance against the metronome. Nope, they're just playing away - tugging and pulling like a big herky-jerky rubber band - somehow related, but never truly with the metronome. Sure if the exercise was 16bars long, then they played it in the space of 48 beats - but that's about all that could be said of some of them.

And so many of the ones that did stay with the metronome, did so at the expense of their inner sub-divisions. It was like wacked-out 1/8th's and 16th's were cool as long as the 1/4's were near the beat.

But of course, thus is so often the nature of "group" musical education. And clearly underlined the value of private instruction.

Which brings me to, of course, agreeing with everything Bart said about the why's and the benefits to his students (and himself) of the metronome. Of course, the metronome is a very important learning tool for every musician - not just drummers.

But giving or recommending a metronome to a novice with the promise of "practicing with this is how you get good time" is a lie - or at least a half-truth that I will longer inflict on young players as a blanket statement. Because as far as I'm concerned without the appropriate skill-set - basic internal rhythm skills of playing, hearing and counting; and the ability to self-correct - and hopefully at least some supervision - the metronome can do as much harm as it can do good.


And just to be clear, let me explain that last sentence: I say that because given the promise of it's "great time bestowing properties" the novice player stops really listening to themselves in so many important ways; instead trading that focus and putting it so often prematurely with just staying "with" the click. Figuring that if they keep letting the metronome "drag" them through things their time will eventually get better.

Now most of us know there is more to it than that - but the kid looking that "magic" tool doesn't - and takes us at our word - "if you want to have great time, practice with a metronome".

So I agree with Jeff - in that, the above statement by itself is simply not true. It takes far more than "practicing with the metronome" to achieve great time. And yet I see it posted as though it is that simple all the time.

And its not that simple.

David

David

That doesn't surprise me - I rarely did either. The emphasis of my training being on playing musically with good time being only one of many criteria.

Also there's this concept of us learning as drummers to "drive the bus" - which always makes me think about learning to ride a bike, and Dad seeming to know that keeping those training wheels on too long was just not a good thing. Use them enough to get your confidence up, but not so much that you start to define the bike riding experience to include the security they provide. Because then it's just going to make it harder to move forward and learn to take control of the bike - risk and all.

The same with "driving the bus" from the drums - sure check that metronome occasionally, or work with it periodically. But day in and day out - again ride the bike all the time with the training wheels on. No, the gig demands our confidence in our own musicality, and our ability to withstand our fears of making a mistake, of being wrong, of rushing, or dragging and rise above them and still function confidently. With the metronome as a constant companion, when does one learn self-reliance - and drumming is an instrument that demands self-reliance.


Actually I was gigging right through from seeing clicks only rarely on music dates (films, TV and sessions that were otherwise a disaster was the only time clicks would come into play) through the introduction of machines and later, sequencing. Which along the way felt fresh and new of course - and some of aspects of it still does, and other aspects over time have come to wear on us, I think. More so as we're slicing and dicing closer and closer to the grid on almost everything, while at the same time dong the same thing with intonation - tuning everything to a point that, for all its perfection is just lifeless and bland.


That last sentence wasn't a purposeful segue... honest. :-)

I think it is similar to the metronome thing - a great tool, a great convenience, but one that allows many a young player to not struggle with, pay attention to intonation as much as they should. Because like time in music, intonation rarely has one correct, perfect solution. Where a note should sit intonation-wise can always be up to debate - depending on its context. So the ability of a player to negotiate this harmonic minefield at a professional level so far dwarfs the ability to merely tune one's instrument as to render the electronic tuners hopefully merely a convenience. And of course the danger would with those players who too early came to rely on these devices, and in the process ended shortchanging their development regarding intonation.

Sort of like giving calculators to 1st graders - great tool, even great for high school kids doing calculus.  Not so good when you're learning how to add and subtract.

Anyway, at least that would be my guess.


I know, but I'll explain anyway. :-)

My point was that Jeff's work - most notably on the three "Bruford" band albums elevated slap bass playing an unprecedented amount. I would say similar to the degree Jaco did with playing harmonics on his solo album - it wasn't that he was the first to lay harmonics on the bass, but he did re-define what was possible with the technique.

For whatever numerous reasons, Jeff's accomplishment with this didn't the world on fire the way Jaco did - but it doesn't change the degree of a leap he made in demonstating what was possible with that bass technique. So yes, I would think to the modern bass player, Jeff is one of the pioneers of the slap bass. Absolutely.

As was Larry and as was Stanley. But beyond that, these things turn into "who's the best?" type of discussion - which I know neither of us are all that fond of. :-)

David

NUKE'M - that wasn't quoting from anything you said, that is pretty much Jeff's position (from some back and forth he and I had when he had a dedicated forum over at talkbass some years back). He may SAY "good time" but he's pretty much talking about "good timing"; the ability to play together no matter what happens with tempo.

As Bart intimates, he doesn't ever talk about the wrong ways in which people use a metronome, about what are useful ways of working with it. He says it just doesn't work.

DAVID - I don't really agree with your analogy of nome as training wheels. It's not a passive tool, nor should it be a passive experience. Merely having it in the room doesn't confer any ability. But there is/should be no difference between playing with a nome or playing with another musician. If me and a piano player are playing with a nome or playing with a drummer. It's just another musical input, right? But the bottom line is, nobody who uses a nome is saying that it's the ONLY way to get good time. What we ARE saying (at least I am) is that if you DON'T have good time, working with a nome can get you there. Jeff is adamant in his insistence that this is impossible. Again, I personally have found his position to be inaccurate.  Not because it's what I thought or what someone told me; but what I personally found to work.

Oh, I was sort of reading as the nome WAS the training wheels?

I can't tell  you how many people I have experienced in my musical life
who could:
- Technically play at a high level when they were playing alone
- Weren't worth a poop when it came to playing with people
  or a record.

I have actually worked with drummers who could Not play along to a record
without totally fouling out.  Not after a minute.  After about 4 seconds.
They would dismiss it as if it wasn't required, that *nobody has perfect time like on the record.*   
I would cringe when this would happen at gigs.  The jukebox would be playing,
and the drummer decides that everyone will be entertained if he plays along.
I just had to count it out: 4-3-2-1 - trainwreck.     

I had a niece that got to this Enormous level of chops on piano - when she
was solo.  As soon as you turned on the metronome, she couldn't play chopsticks.

Shame on anyone instructing others who doesn't - from almost day 1 -
teach about putting work in with a metronome, drum machine, or some
solid time source.

I'm at a disadvantage, as I don't know any of the people involved, or the circumstances.

My gut feeling is to agree with Bart on this, if something becomes abused, it isn't the ultimate solution to ban it, just modify the behaviour.
Because a large minority of society abuses alcohol, I would not want to be told i couldn't enjoy my odd glass of wine ever again.

I've also worked with some similar level players as on Jeff's list. They'll happily plug into a guitar tuner and it doesn't seem to have effected their ability to adjust to situations and improvise as they present themselves.
If it's Jeff's attempt to shake up the (rather lazy) system, then I think I am behind his efforts.
Ironically, in my brief forays into higher education, I found the lack of a system was the problem, rather than slavish adherence to it.
No guitarists brought a tuner to the college session. No drummers a drum key.
Many times we need to bring young players up to that level, then tell them to put these aids to oneside.

That's a great example as piano students notoriously have the worst - even the ones whose teachers drill them constantly with metronome (I know a number of piano, and my ex is very flute instructor). Why? Because they never play in ensemble settings - they never play with other players - ever. And the metronome just doesn't give a young player the same level of feedback as an ensemble. Once a student gets used to fudging with a metronome, it's of little use. Because if the student isn't paying attention, then no one is. Because again the metronome doesn't care whether student plays with it or not.

But an ensemble - a band, duets, an orchestra - even in lessons, this why Laura plays piano along with her flute students. And she does that within the first few lessons - "let's play music". Every teacher should play with their students - yes, we're striving for even time - BUT we're also striving for togetherness, proper technique, the right sticking, etc. - a myriad of new concepts for the new students. Quite the juggling act for the novice student. And IMO the rigid, inflexible presence - with its demand of perfect metronomic time above all else has NO place in a beginner's lessons - at least not for awhile. I don't want counting, stickings, hand positions, and subdivisions to by necessity always be secondary to even metronomic time. There's plenty of time to get to that.

I'm not meaning to slight anyone's  experiences here - there are many ways to get from point A to point Z, I don't think it is insignificant that two pro players, Chris and myself, have pretty much came forward and said that the metronome had little, if nothing, to do with our early development as players.

Now for me, I put much more stock in playing with records/CDs - sure, a student can still fudge (there's no getting around the need for human feedback/coaching/mentoring) with a CD, but I find it is easier to float around a metronome - where while playing with records, there is a groove and music happening as well. And yes, I played with records incessantly through my teens - which I guess would be my work with a "metronome" of sorts. But it was kill 50 birds with one stone - sure, there's the time - but also the dynamics, the vocabulary learning and the pseudo-ensemble experience (no feedback).

But metronomes for stone beginners, no sorry, I shudder at the thought.

David

I can agree with that mostly.  I guess when I talk about metronomes, I'm really
talking about - time references to play along with.

Early in study, though, I strongly believe part of the work has to be - playing along to Some time reference.  That simple concept gets skipped in too many paths of study, and it leads to - armies of people who really can't play with other people.

Not all, but most music is - a Team Sport.

Much of the joy of playing music comes from - communicating with other players musically.  It can't be done if everyone can't stay on the same track/street/page/road/telephone-line/whatevuh.

There is going to be a bunch of drummers out in front of the PASIC throwing their metronomes and clickstations into a 55 gallon drum/camp fire this year.  Some will have signs saying derogatory things about the metronome and the injustices it has caused.

I will be there and no, I won't be wearing a bra 

I have to admit I hate "Tempo Nazi's" in projects.

I played in one cover band where the guitar player was convinced I was playing a particular song too slow until I brough in a click track, matched it up to the tune and played it with the band. 

He shut up after that.

Then there is the character who rags on the poor drummer non stop about tempos and worse even fights them during the song.  Usually a situation I quit as soon as possible!