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Author Topic: What are additive rhythms?  (Read 241 times)
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smoggrocks
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« on: May 02, 2008, 11:04 AM »

came across the term. very briefly read about it, didn't have time to digest it. something about where the accents are placed?

it looks like they're notated differently, too.



if you have any insight, please share, and maybe give eg's.


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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 11:35 AM »

Isn't that a four note phrase becoming a five note phrase becoming a six note phrase etc?
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 02:49 PM »

a little googling seems to point to the term being one used in music analysis/theory to describe how the overall rhythm structure of a piece is derived.

Important concept for applied music? Doesn't seem so to me.  But so much of the jargon of music analysis has never been my thing.

David
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 03:08 PM »

I've personally never heard of the term, nor have I heard it used ... until now.
Can you elaborate as to what you are looking at in more detail? Any graphic illustrations or notation you can share?
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 03:35 PM »

it all started with an innocent googling of 'math rock' and '4/3 time' Tongue

from there, I went on a whirlwind journey through wikipedia and beyond. the 'beyond' landed me here:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:GVr6FHs3ok8J:www.sju.edu/~rhall/Rhythms/Poets/deanslides.pdf+additive+rhythms&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=safari

which took me to this snippet:

Additive Rhythm
Additive rhythm has an underlying unit pulse. Rhythm patterns are formed
by combining unit pulses into notes. Plainchant, Indian music, and Eastern
European music are primarily additive. The rhythm of Sanskrit poetry is
also additive.
Examples: (1) Medieval polyphony (2) Turkish dance, Okay Temiz
 
Challenge
In Eastern European music, rhythms are composed of long and short notes,
where a long note is 3 unit pulses and a short note is 2 unit pulses. For
example, the Bulgarian lesnoto rhythm is a 7-beat rhythm of a long note
followed by 2 short notes, written 3 + 2 + 2, while the rachenitsa rhythm is
2 + 2 + 3.

What is the formula for the number of additive rhythms of length N?

then they went off on a whole schpeal about divisive rhythm, which I didn't read, but I did catch this:
 
3 + 3 + 2 is an additive pattern of three notes and duration 8 pulses.
It creates no tension in additive meter.However, the same set of note onsets is perceived as a deviation from theexpected pattern of accents in the division type 2 3[?]

This deviation creates a rhythmic tension known as syncopation.


so that got me back to wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures

where I found this:

Additive meters
To indicate more complex patterns of stresses, such as additive rhythms, more complex time signatures can be used. For example, the signature

which can be written 3+2+3/8, [they notated it 3+2/8+3] means that the first of a group of three eighth notes (quavers) is to be stressed, then the first of a group of two, then first of a group of three again. The stress pattern is usually counted as one-two-three-one-two-one-two-three. This kind of time signature is commonly used to notate folk and non-Western types of music. In classical music, Béla Bartók and Olivier Messiaen have used such time signatures in their works.



it kinda feels like all this is telling us something we already know [or maybe it's just mental wankery], but I figured I'd ask in case I was missing something really big.


you can blame my curiosity on the fact that I'm going to see holdsworth tonight  Grin


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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 03:42 PM »

Dear Smog,
You have just brought to mind again how very little I know about something I love (music).  Thanks for bringing that to my attention again Tongue

Seriously though, it's interesting - not interesting enough for me to dive into - but interesting non-the-less.   Have a great time at the Holdsworth show   Grin !!!
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 04:01 PM »

it kinda feels like all this is telling us something we already know [or maybe it's just mental wankery], but I figured I'd ask in case I was missing something really big.

Well ... that's how I feel ... taking something we already know, throwing in a few new terms, and wording it in such a way that it makes it harder than it really is. Almost seems like the descriptions are written by someone who doesn't know or understand Western Music terms and/or notation ... or they simply don't want to use that language to describe something.

If that is the case, I personally don't see anything wrong with explaining this type of thing in terms many of us already understand. It's no different than translating a text original written in a foreign tongue ... thus making it accessible to others who don't speak the language.

I wouldn't expect them to explain this in Western terms if they are speaking to a culture that doesn't know or understand Western Music Theory/History. But, like I said, it almost feels they are purposefully avoiding Western terms, which makes me feel like they may be trying to sound a little more scholarly than they really are.  Wink

Thanks for sharing. In all my studies of Eastern music, I've never heard the term additive rhythms.
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2008, 09:56 PM »

As far as the Wiki article on Time Signatures - check out the main reference work listed -

^ Holmes, G. Augustus (January 1949). The Academic Manual of the Rudiments of Music. London: A. Weeks & Co. Ltd., 17.


Guys - 1949!!!!

The whole thing about Simple versus Complex meters boils down to Simple equaling meters that you tap your feet the same number of times per bar as indicated by the "top number" of the signature. 4/4 means there are four beats per bar.  But (oooo, cue the scary music) Complex meters are those that "top number" doesn't match the number of times you tap your foot - 6/8 = 2 beats, 9/8 - 3 beats. 12/8 = 4 beats

But this is all so horribly out of date - as it is very common to play a piece in 9/8 that is so slow in tempo that one indeed taps their foot 9 times per bar. Just a there are classical pieces in 4/4, commonly played so slow as to be counted in 8.

But always leave it to academicians to find a way to over explain everything.

On to "Additive Meters" - again think 1949 music theory scholars trying to explain syncopated folk rhythms. For example, a piece of music that is written (in 4/4), but totally over a foundation rhythm of dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter.  Obviously a very common syncopated rhythm by today's standards - but one totally foreign to Western classical music.  So foreign to classical ears (at that time) that it was felt that such a strong syncopated couldn't be explained (as we would now) as simply "4/4 with a syncopated rhythm" no it MUST a special time signature to emphasize the strength of its prominent rhythm. Thus the complex or compound or additive meter of 3+3+2 / 4.

The point is this was the state of this stuff in 1949 - now?... not so much. You can still see this in the classical world, but in most of today's world the only time you'll see a compound meter like this is when dealing with longer odd meters. 13/8 can be a lot easier to deal with, if the writer notates it in 2+2+3+2+2+2 / 8 ... or more commonly as   13/8 (223,222).  (using, of course, whatever subdivision makes sense with the music).

So yes, it's important to understand how time signatures work as they are fundamental to understanding how rhythm works. And it is a good idea to understand the variations as to how they can be written, if you're hoping to function with players that read. But all these classifications, titles, and special academic names for things really have little use outside of college theory classes.

David
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2008, 11:53 PM »

thanks, dave!

you know, I started looking at the refs but got kind of derailed, time-wise, so it's good that you clarified the context.

net-net: there's easier ways to look at this stuff.


btw, the holdsworth show was pretty good. second half better than first. I was very disappointed with their rendition of 'fred,' but whaddya you gonna do? you need tony for that.

more tomorrow. I'm tired and gotta get home.


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