DRUMMER CAFE

ehhhh...i think vis-a-vis is the correct term. i mean 'compared to' or 'relative to' in some sense.


i know this is probably a subjective issue on some level, as some might feel that just because you raised the technical difficulty/mastery level of an instrument somehow, doesn't mean you created a more superior player. but that's not really what i'm getting at.

speaking in broadstrokes, and thinking of phenomena like the wfd, the growing popularity/use/importance of double bass, super-chops monsters like donati/rabb/lang, not to mention the countless drum accessories, techniques etc., etc--it seems drumming has evolved in a way other instruments--or approaches to other instruments--hasn't.

or has it?

i have no idea--i'm looking for insights from yous. but when i think of say, piano--i don't really think of people going out there to set some new world record for fastest pianist, most # of handstands achieved across the keys, or some new method of playing/thinking about piano or music theory on the piano. a new jelly roll morton or billy taylor, if you will. same with guitar. i know there are many new technicians out there, but i haven't really seen mention of someone who is the latest (insert wfd/chopsmeister/newthinker) on guitar. you know--a radical innovator, new voice, or someone employing or experimenting with an unusual, new/different technique. like holdsworth. [i know oz noy gets a lot of press, but i don't know his stuff].


it just seems like people have done a really vast amount of experimentation/exploration on drums vs. other instruments. in some instances, this seems to have spawned some really exciting players; in other instances not. but it's this push to really raise the technical bar in drumming that i'm calling out here. i just wonder if a similar phenomena has happened with respect to other instruments. sometimes i think there are some bass innovators out there, but i really don't know enough about bass to comment.

we often refer to this sort of thing as 'drumming pyrotechnics' or 'drumming gymnastics', and i think the latter term helps couch this discussion well: in gymnastics, you're graded on level of difficulty/technical mastery, and then on overall performance impact--grace, poise etc. i'm talking about the technical/difficulty aspect. i'm wondering what other instruments are going to the level drums are, and if not, why not. sometimes i think that other instruments are harder to master than the drums [though i totally acknowledge that drums are a beast to master], and maybe that's why the progress is slower in those categories.


thoughts?




and do you want a sliver of my pecan tartlet? coz i am just about to go into deep sugar shock here.

I don't believe drummers are really all that unique in this regard - I think we are just focused on them more for two reasons. One, of course, because we're drummers. And two, because of the marketing from the musical instruments industry. Drums, guitars and keyboards are the meat and potatoes of that industry, every other instrument being secondary. They aren't multiple glossy magazines for clarinet players or even violinists or flutists - instruments that a ton of people learn to play, but not nearly as many as dabble with guitars and drums.


You mentioned bass players - and yes, there has been a revolution of shedding and fast notes in that camp, another direction is seen by Drummer Cafe favorite   Jeff Berlin - whose been pushing the chordal possibilities of the electric bass lately

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/HNmU_m2pE8I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/HNmU_m2pE8I</a>



or this flute player - jazz flute playing and beat box mouth drumming at the same time

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/meR5nk8WaLE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/meR5nk8WaLE</a>

speaking of beat box vocalizing - I love this guy, Kid Beyond - a mic and a laptop and you're a band!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pAw0VjZNRBE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/pAw0VjZNRBE</a>

and one without the looper -

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jShpXlDfXYI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/jShpXlDfXYI</a>


or everybody's favorite speed metal cello quartet (or at least mine!)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_tgLdWCDWSw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/_tgLdWCDWSw</a>


Now all this stuff may not seem as technically innovative to us as it may to the people more involved with those instruments. Which of course I think explains a great deal of the relative indifference our drumming innovators are faced with outside the inner drum community. Non-drummers see/hear some great feat of independence and rightfully go "But isn't that what you guys do all the time - four things at once" And when you try to explain "No this is totally different" and are faced with yet more "What ever". It makes it clear that it is just  a bit more of what we already do. And as such, not really that revolutionary, but more evolutionary.

The big trick, I feel, is to take these evolutionary elements and use them as a part of a music that has some impact, even on those that may not really get the technique. They may be aware of it - i don't believe it needs to be hidden from them or denied - but they need to be blown away by the musical effect, not the new technique itself.

This is why IMO the whole left foot clave (or whatever) stuff is really appreciated, because there is no new sound there to get excited about. We've heard drumset with clave for decades - the only thing amazing is that there is one less player. And why should listeners be excited about that? We've _heard_ it before - not created in the same way, but that really makes no difference to the ears. And at the end of the day, what we do is all about serving the ears.

The one man band playing the bass drum on his back with a rope tied to his ankle, while playing the accordian and the trumpet at the same time - or even Kid Beyond above for that matter - fun and entertaining feast for the eyes and the ears. But close your eyes and you've heard it all before - and actually done better by a whole band or whatever.

A great example of the big trick for me would like 1971 - Mahavishnu Orchestra opening successfully for Black Sabbath - let's take modern jazz techniques, a little indian/odd meter influence and package them as basically instrumental rock - and sell to a heavy metal crowd and have them buy it. Now that was innovation and revolutionary - opening  up an audience to something new and have them embrace it. Not that every Black Sabbath fan went out and bought Inner Mounting Flame - but it was a successful endeavor.

So I don't know - looking about I see a bunch of people pushing the envelope and bunch more just doing more of the same old thing. But it seems to me that's the way it has always been.

David

For some insanely fast guitar playing, check out a guy named Rusty Cooley at www.rustycooley.com. The guy has just a little bit of speed.

Also, why no mention of Victor Wooten or another name not mentioned all that much anymore, Abraham Laboriel. Obviously I am talking about the dad, the bass player and not the son, the drummer.

I think all of these guys are pushing the technical boundaries just a bit. Also on guitar is a guy by the name of Tony MacAlpine, who in a live concert I was at took Steve Vai to school.

yah, and i acknowledged this at the outset. my point wasn't really to determine if these people were creating better or more influencial music--but to see if people playing other instruments besides drums were trying to push the technical boundaries, and if not, then why not.

i think we all realize that at the end of the day it's all about music--whatever style of music that is. just curious about who the modern-day noodlers on other instruments are.

have gotten some cool examples thus far. dave crigger--you da man! 




btw--how the heck are ya, tony? long time no chat!

I have to slightly disagree with those who dismiss the chop meisters.  I think that the development of music has always been tied to "chops", or the exploration of what is possible - physically - humanly, even mechanically when you get down to the instruments themselves.  A great song doesn't need pyrotechnics BUT musicians for millenia have done everything from tell simple stories, to move the listener to tears OR to dazzle and excite. Whether it's the musicians in the Old Testament leading the Israelites, Mozart showing off his chops, a gypsy on a violin shredding, Charlie Parker blowing your mind, a street performer with a tambourine or Jeff Berlin playing that phenomenal Anthem (Thanks Dave Crigger for sharing those fantastic vids).  I think it's wrong to suggest that the "chop meisters" are not contributing significantly to musical development.  Who really knows what will come out of the myriad of styles and techniques being fused together.  If one is stuck in a genre or style, and doesn't want things to change that's another issue. Gene Krupa changed drumming and the way people look at drummers in a band forever, not by sitting back and "serving the music" (don't throw stones) - he got out there and wailed away.  Was he wrong to solo so much?    Weckl changed my perspective on many levels. He's been criticized for playing too many notes - hogwash (IMHO).  Yes, young drummers should learn to appreciate the beauty of Ringo and Porcaro or simple pocket players but to suggest other players aren't making positive contributions is a bit narrow.  Not everyone wants to be a studio producers dream drummer - thank God! Music is much much bigger than our own experience of it and it will keep developing and expanding - in part through the contributions of those skilled enough and daring enough to push boundaries.

Great thread Smog...  As far as other instruments I'd say that the drumming community is unique (partly just in the social aspect).  Not that it is moving faster or further than others.  But considering that Piano and guitar have been around a lot longer than drum sets we might still be finding what is possible for the instrument, where it's hard to find anyone doing something on keyboards that wasn't possible technically 100 years ago..  Sometimes when I listen to Segovia, I think all the guitar shredders are toddlers. 

Yes, I argue that they are - they are influencing a generation of musicians. Doesn't matter if you and I like it or not.  By the way, I think Jeff Berlin's contribution is HUGE! Some consider him the pioneer of slap and tap playing....
I put them all in the category of musicians. Yes there are ICONs who stand head and shoulders above everyone else but future generations will look back and tell who today's ICONs are, not us.  But that's not the point I'm interested in.  Even these ICONs are influenced by the musicians playing around their time and sphere.  Mozart started on Violin under his dad's tutelage and then later sat on Bach's lap learning Piano.  He didn't appear out of thin air. He was watching the great contemporary musicians of his time, some well known, some not so well known.  Those contemporaries and teachers gave Mozart the start.  In the 19th century, I believe Paganini's "Moto Perpetuo" was a tune violinists competed on, trying to play in less than 3 minutes (could be wrong)..  Musicians have a history of going for speed and developing new abilities, not just drummers. 

I leave it with this...  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/dPRWshWq9E4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/dPRWshWq9E4</a> 
And there are a ton youtube vids with people playing this.  Some are really fun to watch.  It's a part of the game.

No one has commented on Rusty Cooley which makes me believe no one has gone to his site and listened to him. Therefore I offer this video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/8aVlLguYkIY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/8aVlLguYkIY</a>

pass the garlic bread and Parmesan please

Yeah, I understand that, just thought it was something that fit what you were looking for. He is definitely pushing the boundaries, at least the current boundaries.

Good. I get a little testy when excellent artists are criticized and popularity or commercial success is an underlying reason. 
I'm have a huge amount of respect for you (and your knowledge of the industry) Chris.  I'm not claiming to be a historian - my comment on Berlin is based a few things I've read - perhaps it should have read "one of the pioneers".  minor point.  But, to suggest that guys like Lang, Donati, Berlin, et al are not making positive or significant contributions simply because they aren't recording with Stevie Wonder or don't have Vinnie's discography is wrong - IMHO I hardly listen to the most popular music (Rap/Country/etc... )   So if the drummer is judged on the number of CDs they have to their credit, I'm in a different game altogether.