Hi, everyone!  I found this place through Drummerworld while watching some videos (which is the only thing I do on Drummerworld right now!), and I'm glad to be here.

My name is Tim, and I live in the Twin Cities.  I just play the drums, and I'm self-taught.  I've only been playing for around 15 years, so I am mainly here to learn. And one of the first things I think I need to learn right now is a little bit about live overhead miking with small diaphragm condenser mics combined with a Beta 52, and probably an SM57 on the snare.  But if you'd like to know more about me or my drums, then I'm always open to questions and happy to answer.  I'll tell you just about anything you want to know about me or my equipment.

So, on Saturday June 21st, I'm going to be having my second outdoor gig where no PA is provided, and it will be the first gig ever for me where I will actually have the ability to mic the drums myself (I am very excited about that).  However, for that first outdoor unmiked gig, I had no mics, so I had to play my hardest.  As a result, nothing felt musical even though everyone was happy (the band lets me be in charge of the PA system because, even though I don't know much, I know the most out of the 4 of us).  So, based on this experience, I have a specific and somewhat obvious goal in mind.   The PA we have is the Peavey XR-684F (Pic.  Page with specs) with just two PA speakers (no sub, however the woofers on our 3-way PA speakers appear to be 15").  We also each have these Peavey hot-spot style monitors (there are 4 of us).  They mount on mic stands.  The microphones I have at my disposal are two SM57's, a Beta 52, and the M-AUDIO Pulsar II Matched Pair.  I just received the matched pair by FedEx today specifically for this gig.  It came with a Stereo Bar which I will be using to save myself from buying a second boom mic stand.

We're playing in a parking lot, and according to the owner of the bar, we are going to be covered by a 60'x80' tarp or tent kind of thing (he's hoping even the patrons will be sheltered if it rains).

Anyway, my goal is to do better than that first unmiked, outdoor gig where I had no mics and had to play my hardest to have a somewhat acceptable mix.  And to get specific, what I want coming through the PA is the bass drum from the Beta 52 (again, no sub, so chest-thump isn't a goal), and the rest of the kit from the Pulsar II's (yeah, including the toms).  I'm on a very tight budget, so I think that this is basically the best I can do.  Besides, I have very limited know-how as well.  Again, I also have two SM57's at my disposal, and I'm willing to use them if I end up needing them.  I'll probably end up miking the snare anyway since I just recently was lucky enough to purchase the Jeff Ocheltree 14"x5½" Heavy Metals Carbon Steel snare.

My boom mic stand should arrive on Monday, so my plan to prepare for the gig is to take my computer to the practice studio and record from the XR-684F with similar levels that we'd use for this outdoor gig.  I've recorded myself in the past, so I at least know what I'm doing with THIS part.   The only difference is I'll have real overhead mics instead of two SM57's as overheads (but I actually got pleasing results that way).

First, I'm going to record myself "singing" into their vocal mics (but we don't mic the drums at practice), and then I'm going to play the drums under the Pulsar II's and the Beta 52 (I may end up turning the vocal mics all the way down before playing, but I'm currently undecided.  I'll experiment when I get there).  As I said, the Matched Pair came with a Stereo Bar, so I'll have the mics on that and spread apart as far as possible in a Y pattern, specifically positioned to get the entire drum set.  Then I'll listen back and compare the levels and the sound quality.  I'm going to repeat this process until the mix seems like it will be an acceptable live mix.  And I'll know because I'll have the ability to also look at the levels, for I'll be using Sony's Sound Forge 7.0.  And for clarification, I'm going to be playing it back through the PA.

My hope is that when I get to the gig, I will be able to use the levels I got in that recording test as a guide to be able to get a decent mix right away without much hassle.  I'm hoping that this will save me some time so all I have to do is make some minor adjustments.

So finally, here are my questions!  I'm sorry it took so long...

Will this work the way I'm planning on it to work?  Or will this recording test be a waste of time?  If it will work as planned, then I think my only concerns right now are feedback (thanks to my "hotspot" style monitor), and phase issues.  When I looked at the literature that came with my new condensers, it said that, with the way I'm going to mount the mics in this spread Y pattern, phase issues such as "cancellation, comb filtering, etc." are possible and are more likely to occur than with an X pattern for stereo miking, which is not what I'm after right now.  So, what causes phase issues?  How are they resolved without any additional equipment (which I cannot afford or learn how to use right now)?  How will I know when I'm having phase issues?  Or, what sound characteristics will help me recognize when I'm having phase issues?  And how can I recognize which phase issue is occurring?

You see, unfortunately, my band mates don't have much patience for a sound check for some reason.  So, that's why I'm hoping to get the levels set before I do the gig by recording and getting a general idea of where the drums should be in comparison to where the vocal mics are, and then adjusting accordingly!

So, what do you think?

This isn't a professional gig (it's quite amateurish), but it is outdoors, and so I do need to mic the drums so I can actually play musically.  And I chose condensers because I personally care a lot about the sound quality for my audience (I'm very big on high quality customer service).  I mean, if I had the money and the time to learn, then I'd have a very serious mic setup with some very serious equipment!

I look forward to any help you can provide.  And I thank you very sincerely for your time.  I know this is an extremely long post, and I apologize for that.

Hi Tim,
I also live in the Twin Cities....I'm an old pro drummer with tons of experience. I have 4 sets, plus mics and extra snares. I'm going to send you an email with my phone number. I live in So.St.Paul if you know where that is. Be more than glad to help you if I can. I also have a son-in-law who is a pro soundman. He lives just a few blocks from me. He does sound & lights for 2 Twin City schools. 

X And Y are not separate techniques...

Coincident Pair (X/Y) is one technique with your stereo bar

And Near Coincident Pair (ORTF) [Office de Radiodiffusion
Television Française] is another

Personally I would use X/Y .

X/Y is chosen by many engineers because it has a sharp & accurate stereo image and has much, much less phase issues than spaced pair (AB)  (even if the 3:1 rule is followed). And is also Mono Compatible.  

‘Spaced Pair’(AB)  however will have a slightly wider (exaggerated) stereo image, but the centre image is unfocused (snare etc..) and will not sum to Mono because of the phase issues, it will also require two mic stands...

Near Coincident Pair (ORTF) has a slightly wider stereo image than X/Y and is more accurate/ focused than (AB) but still has phase issues and will not sum to mono.

I personally prefer to use X/Y even though I record Heavy Metal music, (a traditional spaced pair stamping ground)

Cheers

 

N

Thank you.  That taught me a lot, but I'm not going to be taking advantage of stereo (I'm unable to with this mixer, and to be honest, I only bought these condensers because of what I got for my money since I can't do stereo with them - nor would I personally want to in a live environment).  And like I say, these came with a stereo bar, so I only need the one mic stand.

My goal is to use them as overheads, and to divide the work between two mics so that I'm not forced to try and figure out the best position to get the whole kit with just one overhead (yeah, I'm a perfectionist hehe).

So based on what you said, it sounds to me that stereo imaging is what causes phase issues (which makes total sense), so since I'm unable to go stereo with the way I'm using this mixer (not that I want stereo), it sounds like I don't have to worry about phase issues!

So if that is actually true, then I guess all I have left to worry about is:  Will SM57's yield better results than the condensers I bought since I'm looking to mic the whole kit with overheads (and I'll get the bass drum with the 52)?  How are the Pulsar II's with humidity?  And will that recording test I keep talking about help me get a general idea of where to start with the mix once I'm at the gig?

Thank you so much for your help so far everyone.  You're wonderful.  I appreciate it so much.

Honestly, there's just no benefit to using a second overhead, and plenty of reasons not to, such as phase issues, and bringing more $ worth of gear to be broken/stolen/lost. And also, the less mic's you use, the less chance you have of having phase issues.

Here's an article to help you understand what phase issues are and how they work. http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/phase_polarity/index_phase.html

Another minor point.. live SR especially in the low end is not often mixed in stereo. Typically a single mono signal for mains, and another mono for monitors. Larger more advanced systems will provide multiple channels of monitors, and some big dog SR systems even use different FOH cabinets keeping vocals separate from backing instruments to provide better clarity by reducing intermodulation products, but that's getting esoteric. Some big acts like Floyd have performed in surround but that too is rare.

Check out some real systems to see what works and doesn't. But keep in mind two issues. It takes more power and more cone area to reproduce high SPL at low frequencies, and working outdoors requires that much more power and cone area, than indoors.

JR

PS: Modern trends with in-ear monitors may be opening up opportunities to monitor in stereo but the benefits for general purpose reinforcement are minimal.

Live Sound reinforcement is much cruder than recording so fine detail will often be lost unless the arrangement leaves lots of room for it to be heard.

At the level you are talking, a single overhead can grab some cymbal wash and snare snap to add some HF detail to the PA. HF doesn't carry as well as LF so this may help.

Get somebody you trust to adjust mix levels while listening to the result, with all the meat socks in place, so the instruments don't overpower the vocals in the mix.

JR

Welcome to the world of live performance.

I have completed the little recording test to get a basic idea of what the mix should be, and so far, I think I know almost exactly what the mix should be!

I did numerous tests, including 4 different tests:  one with the 2 condensers, one with 1 condenser, one with 2 SM57's, and one with just 1.  As it turns out, I got the best sound with the 2 condensers (the M-Audio Pulsar II).  I was surprised.

I had consistent results with both mics:  when there was just 1, I had to turn the mic up VERY high to get an acceptable level out of it (almost all the way up).  But when there were two, I didn't have to turn them up very high at all (it was even below 0dB).  It was very strange.

As one would expect, the Pulsar II's - being small diaphragm condenser mics - outperformed the SM57's as overheads.  With the sound quality I got from the Pulsar II's, I think it's safe to say that these mics were a wise investment.

But all in all, I'm hoping that sound check won't be more complicated than it usually is now that I'm actually miking the drums.

So, the setup will be:

Two M-Audio Pulsar II's as overheads, and the Beta 52 in the bass drum.  When I played back my little recordings, it didn't sound like I needed a snare mic.  I feared that if I did that, then I'd want tom mics as well.  So, I realized that this was the best way to go to ensure a good balance.

Besides, I know very, very little, so everything must stay as simple as possible.

Oh, that's okay.  It's looking like I'm gonna pull this off a little easier than I thought.  Of course, I'd better keep my fingers crossed.  We're talking the difference between a small 13'x12' room and the outdoors!!  I don't know WHAT to expect.  But with the way the vocal levels compare to the drum levels, I think I found the perfect place to start.  And I got a good mix between the OH's and the bass drum. 

For everyone:  what kind of differences should I expect once I'm outdoors?