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Author Topic: Do you like it on top or the bottom? Mic's that is...  (Read 865 times)
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Rhyvven
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« on: May 16, 2008, 06:59 AM »

I know....childish topic heading...but I got you here didn't I?  Grin

I am sure it has been discussed, but for the life of my bad memory and search methods could not recall.

Most of what I am going say is way "generalized". But it will help to keep the length of the post down.

Drums are generally mic'd on the batter side, yes? The resonant head provides the "note/tune/pitch -we hear" of the drum (yes, I know, many parts of the drum influence the sound). Obviously the batter head also resonates after striking it and the air moves towards the resonant and then back again.

Being mic'd on top picks up the attack of the strike and also the sound of the drum "'resonating". I can't say I have ever seen drums mic'd on the resonant side. Doesn't mean it is NOT done, I have just not seen it. This is deferred of course to a non-ported kick drum as generaly the resonant side IS mic'd. But I have seen batter side mic's also on kicks (and snare sides occasionally - both situation dependent).

So, perhaps I am asking more in regards to Toms. Does it just plain not sound good from the resonant side? Is it too much resonance for an engineer to work with? Am I just plain stupid and should know the answer...and probably do?  Tongue

I suppose you can not answer that last one.



EDIT: Okay, no answers but 21 views....maybe people were skiddish with original title post. I changed it.




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Ryan
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 09:33 AM »

(I haven't really ever done anything with mic'ed drums, this is all speculative.)

I had always thought that the reason you put a mic on the batter head was to get the attack like you said.  That's what really needs to be heard in my opinion.  Let's say you had mics on the bottom of the toms.  It seems you would get sort of a "whoooooom" sound if you're only on the resonant head, and not only that but there might be a perceivable delay that makes the drums sound like they're lagging behind the beat.

But now that you've raised that question, I have no idea why it seems to work for bass drums.  Granted, most mic'ing situations with bass drums will have either a ported head or just not even have a reso head.
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chilledbongo
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 09:43 AM »

ive seen snares miced on the bottom, and of course most kicks are miced just outside or inside the port, though some place the mic farther inside closer to the batter.

i dont think ive seen toms miced from below, though.

theres one way to find out how it would sound: do it and see for yourself. it could be a genius discovery! Wink
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Chip71
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 10:19 AM »

Boy, I've been on both sides of the coin with this matter. I've done 5 recordings over the years. Have very good mics, enough for all my drums plus overhead mics. In just about 90% of my experience I end up with a bass mic just inside my ported bass. A mic just a little above my snare head, and two overheads to pick up the entire kit. I rarely use my drum mics unless I'm doing an outdoor gig. Indoors, that's all that needed. I've experimented with mics on the reso side, but end up doing my micing on the top heads. I've got a son-in-law who is a sound man. He's helped me with my decisions what is the best use of mics. I'm willing to bet, both Bart and Bermuda will come to the same conclussion. Do it with a bass mic, snare mic, and two overheads....But I've been wrong before.  Grin
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Antman
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 11:10 AM »

In my experience it's all about the sound you want.

I've mic'd top, bottom, and sides. There's no correct answer.

Once at a live gig I'd stupidly set my kit up way too tight for the sound guy to fit a mic in on my 12" tom, so he mic'd the bottom side of that tom, and the top for all the others. Apparently it sounded great out front. I suspect it had a really wet sound, that would have really suited the music we were playing back then.

But bare in mind this does also depend on tuning, your relationship between your heads will also influence the relationship between micing either side of the tom.

In regards to bottom mics not picking up  the attack, it's not likely that micing the bottom of a drum will make the attack completely vanish. It's a matter of degree, and like most things to do with sound, there are A LOT of variables, which makes it very hard to talk about.

In my recording for the drummer cafe community solo I mic'd my snare from the side of the shell, about 8" back. It sounds great in my opinion. But if I'd wanted more snare sound for whatever reason I might have mic'd the bottom head, which I've done several times both recording my own drums, and recording other peoples drums.

Someone mentioned mic'ing the top and bottom of a snare creating phase issues. Yes it CAN create a phase issue, but mic positioning determines phase, and this is always happening with all the mics on a kit. It's perfectly possible to solve a phase issue when mic'ing both sides of a snare drum without ever flipping the polarity of the signal, just by moving the mics. Some people seem to preach that it's some sort of magic rule that you MUST flip the polarity on the bottom mic! Crazy!!!

So my point is, that just by putting a mic on the reso side of a drum doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a phase problem and putting it on top doesn't mean you wont have a phase problem.

Sorry if I've ranted a little, I'm a bit tired.
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Rhyvven
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 01:39 PM »

Boy, I've been on both sides of the coin with this matter. I've done 5 recordings over the years. Have very good mics, enough for all my drums plus overhead mics. In just about 90% of my experience I end up with a bass mic just inside my ported bass. A mic just a little above my snare head, and two overheads to pick up the entire kit.


  Thank you all for the replies. I figure it is a "subjective/situational" type question at the easiest. Was just curious because it does seem the batter side at least for toms, is the "accepted" method. Was wondering how it came to be I guess.

  Chip, I quoted you as I am interested what kind of overhead mikes you use(d). Not necessarily brand, but type. Condensers? I have only ever used/had my condensers when recording for a CD in a "studio" room. Of course I had all my other mic's also. Are condensers are too directional for a live gig (with no tom mic's)? I always interpreted their use, at least how I had them aimed, for picking up the cymbals.

  I do like the idea of just the snare, kick and two overheads though. I have heard many full sounding kits this way, albeit though I think only in the studio, just never tried it myself.
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 05:27 PM »

Yes, I think you tend to get too much boooiiinnng when only micing the resonant head of a tom.
In the studio some of the top engineers will mic both top and bottom of the toms. Adding in a little of the bottom mic for fullness at the mixdown stage.
Single headed toms have often been mic'ed from below (more inside). But then you've eliminated the resonant head anyway.
The bottom snare mic is to pick up more snare buzz too by the way.
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 07:09 PM »

Was just curious because it does seem the batter side at least for toms, is the "accepted" method. Was wondering how it came to be I guess.
As far as I am aware it’s because most engineers preferred the sound, simple as that really..

I don’t get much useful stuff from bottom tom mics as a rule… mainly it’s all the rubbish I am trying to get rid of when it comes to mix time but YMMV

Whenever mic’ing anything I always say throw a set of cans (headphones) on a get hold of the mic and move it around until it sounds the best…

I am always very suspicious of any of my engineering brethren if I see them aligning a mic by sight rather than sound.. (if time and the situation allows of course) an inch can utterly change the sound with mic positioning, and although I can get a pretty good sound setting a mic position by sight and experience, I can always get a better sound setting it by ear.. 

Snare bottom mics; a lot of the time they can have a lot of stuff you somtimes don’t want in them, lots of kick etc. A nice trick is to sidechain a gate on the bottom mic from the top snare mic with a slowish (25-30ms) attack & fast release, so when the top mic pick up the hit it opens the bottom mic just after the attack of the hit to give some nice snare wire buzz during the main hit but disappears quickly before getting too much rattle in the tail, oh and e.q. the bottom mic to taste/heck..

Phase alignment is a problem with resonate head mics especially if they are breaking the 3:1 rule, and the polarity button is generally not your friend, it’s just pretending to be.. But correct phase alignment of drum mics is far too deep a subject to go into here…

Are condensers are too directional for a live gig (with no tom mic's)? I always interpreted their use, at least how I had them aimed, for picking up the cymbals.
Directionality is to do with the polar pattern of the mic not whether it’s dynamic or a condenser.

Lots of drum mics are cardioid or hyper-cardioid, dynamics are generally a fixed polar pattern like the Shure SM57 (cardioid) or Shure Beta57 (hyper-cardioid) the hyper-cardioid is the more directional  & omnidirectional is the least. It’s common to find a switch on Condenser mics that allows you to change between polar patterns.

Condensers are used a lot for overheads because they are usually quicker and more accurate than dynamic mics.

 Smiley

N

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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 06:31 PM »

like anything else w/ mic's, it depends entirely on what you're going for.  if you're recording and capturing the kit-as-instrument with oh's, room mics, and even distant ambient mic's, then the close mic's are going to be to bring in more of the attack and 'whomp' of the sound.  if you're going fora really controlled sound, especially on toms, i've worked with engineers who've mic'd the bottoms... especially on dryer-sounding kits. 

yes, watch for phase and yes, as always, mic choice and placement make a huge difference. i've had nice luck w/ an sm98 on top and a 421 on the bottom (looking to get lots of tone as the overheads picked up tons of attack on that kit/room combination), an sm7 or sm57 on top and a ribbon below (to get more resonance and low-end off of a bright floor tom), and 57's on both sides. 

live... no.  tops only, with overheads for cymbals.  just got off a week-long festival tour and aside from the oh's, everything was gated--the amount of sound going on for a big gig meant that there was insane amounts of junk-- cymbals, monitor bleed, vocal monitor bleed-- coming through everything.  all about getting a very clear tone from the drum and mic in that case.
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 08:20 PM »

I rarely mic my toms live- I normally just have a Kick, snare and overhead. But, I HAVE used mics on the bottom when I was trying to get different sounds [and had some free time] in the studio. I guess you could call it a "rounded" sound. It WAS nice to have the mics out of the way.

Modern Drummer did a review a while back for some kind of hole thing that you cut a hole [like a small bass drum port] and put this protective ring around it so that you could mic the toms from the bottom [but I guess technically it would be the inside]
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 12:27 AM »

I have had some experience with mics, and while I didn't really have time to experiment, I find that with the toms and snare, I usually mic them with a mic on the batter side just above the drum, and with the kick, I like to put it out in front of the drum a bit off center, and if there's a hole in it, I stick the mic inside the drum just a bit. With the way I position the kick mic, the drummer hitting the mic isn't a problem, but with the toms and snare, I try to keep the mic out of the way of the general striking range of the drummer, while at the same time keeping it close enough to capture the sound accurately.

I'd like to try and experiment sometime with miking toms from the bottom as well as miking the snare and kick from both batter and resonant sides, but whenever I'm doing sound, it's for my church's band playing on stage, so time doesn't really permit. Undecided

I'm always interested to hear about different ways of miking, though. I guess you could say I'm a major drum mic fan!  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 08:35 PM »

Personally I'm no sound engineer.  But every one I've ever worked with (and I have worked with some phenominally great soundmen) have always mic'd from the top.  Occasionally in the studio the snare is mic'd both on top and bottom.  Just a bottom mic on the snare is awful but in conjunction with a top mic can sound killer.

Live you usually want to limit the number of mics used.  I figure if every sound man mics drums on the top there must be a good reason for it.  I've also never noticed bottom mic'ing by touring bands except in the old days of concert toms where the mic was stuck way up inside the drum.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 06:45 PM »

Chip, I quoted you as I am interested what kind of overhead mikes you use(d). Not necessarily brand, but type. Condensers? I have only ever used/had my condensers when recording for a CD in a "studio" room. Of course I had all my other mic's also. Are condensers are too directional for a live gig (with no tom mic's)? I always interpreted their use, at least how I had them aimed, for picking up the cymbals.
I use two Shure SM81's on a boom with them aimed at an inward/slight downward angle over the kit. I have experimented with different locations for the room, but usually end up on both sides over my ride cymbals. The location may vary with the room. I've also used them on both sides pointed somewhat forward. Seem to do a good job for me.
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50 AM »

There is a great article on getting snare and kick sounds in Sound On Sound magazine this month. Check it out, they deal with this exact topic and get opinions from some heavy duty producers. Well worth the read.
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 09:06 AM »

On another (lesser) drum forum, there was a recent topic where I guy posted a sound recording he'd made.  If you go here http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=815388 and click play on the top link, you'll hear two hits of a tom with top and bottom mics, then two hits with just the top mic, two hits with just the bottom mic, and two with both on again.  Then the same thing for a floor tom.

SM57 on top, Sennheiser E609 on the bottom.
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 09:41 AM »

Very interesting! Thanks
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 05:31 PM »

Another note if you mic both the top and bottom of the snare.  I have read that you need to reverse the phase on one of the cords so you don't get a sound cancelation between the two mics.

Rick
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 05:50 PM »

Another note if you mic both the top and bottom of the snare.  I have read that you need to reverse the phase on one of the cords so you don't get a sound cancelation between the two mics.

Rick

I think I stated earlier, that as with all things in sound, that's a decision that your ears should make. Flip the phase, try it, flip it back, decide which one sounds better. But not because it just seems to be some matter of fact.
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 06:01 AM »

There's a guy in South Minneapolis I worked with who basically calls his living room a studio.  It's a small house.  Anyway, when he miked my drums, he used two AKG C 2000's as overheads, my Beta 52 out in front of the bass drum (full front head), about 2 inches away dead center (my crazy idea), and the other 4 drums were bottom-miked.  He used my SM57 on the snare pointed up at the snare, and he used regular vocal mics (one was a nice one by Sennheiser) for the toms, all pointed up at the toms.  He loved the idea of letting me position the microphones because I proved that I was quite good at it by sight, but he absolutely refused to do batter-side miking.  I got him to do it once, but he hated it for some reason (but I thought it sounded better).

But I gotta admit that he got a decent sound with my Stage Customs miking them this way.  The C-2000's did a pretty decent job of picking up the cymbals and the attack of the drums (as well as some of the low end), and the bass drum was killer which surprised me since I had no port.  I think we got the attack of the bass drum from the "floor tom" mic (it's a 14"x12" rack tom) combined with the snare mic since they were bottom miked.  And since I didn't have to worry about mics being in the way or worry about gear positioning to fit mics on top, I almost preferred this setup myself.  But, I will never use it when miking my drums with my own mics.

So anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I'm just adding to the comments such as, it's all in what you want.  This guy strongly preferred bottom-miking, and you may end up the same way.  Who knows? Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 08:26 AM »

I just started miking my snare drum from the side, you get the sound of the stick hitting the top head and the snares on the bottom at the same time! I no longer need to mic my snare top and bottom.
How cool is that!?
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