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Author Topic: Notation question  (Read 965 times)
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garagerocker
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« on: July 05, 2008, 12:12 PM »

I have searched the forum but can't quite find what I'm looking for.  I am seeking a little history here.  Could someone please explain why, in the notation of music for drum pieces such as military marches, there appears to be no consistent way of writing?  By example, I am looking at two different pieces for the drums for Stars & Stripes Forever.  It's not a Percussion I/Percussion II difference. One of these pieces is written all stems up.  The other is all stems down.  On another piece I have, Glory of the Yankee Navy, the flams appear to be written with the grace note in BACK of the flam rather than in front.  Are they just written by different people, or is their some hidden meaning?  I find this plays havoc with my limited sightreading ability.  I can't yet read music that is written for other instruments such as piano, I have not been reading again that long (2 years) and this is my first long term exposure to military marches and concert band material.

Help?
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 12:26 PM »

The rule for stems up or down is the following:

If the note head appears above the middle line, of the standard 5-bar-line staff, the stems go down. If the note head appears below the middle line, the stems go up.

This is just a "rule of thumb" ... and when there's only one note head, such as a Snare drum part, the stem can go up or down regardless of the "rule". T

The "rule" is in place to make it easier to read and keep the clutter to a minimum. If you were reading a drumset part where there's note heads for the Snare, Kick, HiHat, etc., the stems can go either way, up or down. Obviously if the notes are beamed together, all the stems would need to go the same direction. Some people notate the parts of the drumkit played by the hands with the stems going up; played by the feet, stems going down.

For many years there hasn't been a "standard" notation, but at this time one has been adopted for drums and percussion. Still, there is room to break the rules when necessary or at the discretion of the composer.

The grace-notes notated behind the main stroke of the Flam is completely incorrect ... IF ... in fact the notation is meant to be a Flam. If it's a rudimental composition, it's probably a Flam and needs to be notated appropriately. In modern music, 20th Century and beyond, a composer may want a "grace-note" after a main stroke ... for an effect. Although not very common and probably unlikely in your case, it can happen.

There's not much to say about the stem issue however. You are going to see stems going up or down on a Snare drum part; that's just the way it is. Many composers nowadays do follow the rule I cited earlier, but there is no notation police to make them do anything. If anything it's the publishers fault for not forcing the issue. But if you are dealing with an older work, especially one that is manuscript, it is what it is.

I will say that typically single line notation for percussion instruments (e.g. Snare drum) are notated with the stems going up.
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garagerocker
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 12:44 PM »

Thanks for the info.  I appreciate the explanation.
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Louis
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 12:54 PM »

Bart has pretty much summed up the way things should be!  In 1966 I was a senior in High School and asked almost the same question.  My band director at the time gave me almost the same answer as Bart and then the next day he gave me two snare pieces to play, one had the stems going up and one had the stems going down.  Otherwise the two were the same.  His question to me was what difference is there in the sound when playing the piece?  The stem rule is there to make the piece easier to read and I should be concentrating on playing and not worrying about why an engraver or a publisher did things one way or another.   
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 11:20 PM »

The grace-notes notated behind the main stroke of the Flam is completely incorrect ... IF ... in fact the notation is meant to be a Flam. If it's a rudimental composition, it's probably a Flam and needs to be notated appropriately. In modern music, 20th Century and beyond, a composer may want a "grace-note" after a main stroke ... for an effect. Although not very common and probably unlikely in your case, it can happen.

Danny Tomlinson has written the book on flams (quite literally ... never knew there were so many types of flams out there), and he shows proper notation that the grace note can come before or after the accented stroke.

(This is possibly where Bart and I debate whether flam can be anything but a grace note preceding an accented or primary stroke, because there are no alternatives recognized by authorities on such matters. In my opinion, if there's a grace note tied to an accented a primary note, it's always a flam, regardless of the placement of the grace note, and regardless of the specified notation of the grace note).

That said, I sincerely doubt anything written for military use or in military style would have a reverse flam. That's more of a drum corp/flam geek kind of thing.
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 06:35 AM »

Danny Tomlinson has written the book on flams (quite literally ... never knew there were so many types of flams out there), and he shows proper notation that the grace note can come before or after the accented stroke.

That said, I sincerely doubt anything written for military use or in military style would have a reverse flam. That's more of a drum corp/flam geek kind of thing.

I'm not questioning or debating the possibilities or validity of placing a grace-note before, after or in between another note or group of notes. What I AM saying is that as an "official" rudiment, one that appears in standard notation and is meant to be the Flam rudiment, the grace-note should be notated before the main stroke.

Note my original post ...
Quote
The grace-notes notated behind the main stroke of the Flam is completely incorrect ... IF ... in fact the notation is meant to be a Flam. If it's a rudimental composition, it's probably a Flam and needs to be notated appropriately. In modern music, 20th Century and beyond, a composer may want a "grace-note" after a main stroke ... for an effect. Although not very common and probably unlikely in your case, it can happen.

What is debatable is whether it should be called a Flam ... if the grace-note comes after a primary/accented note. For me, in order for it to be a Flam, the grace-note must come before. Why? Because the majority of the drum rudiment names are onomatopoeic.

For those that are not familiar with that word ...
Quote
onomatopoeia (ŏn'ə-măt'ə-pē'ə, -mä'tə-) n.
The formation or use of words such as buzz or murmur that imitate the sounds associated with the objects or actions they refer to.

The rudiment called Flam is definitely onomatopoeic. The "F" is the grace-note; "lam" is accented or primary stroke.

To play the grace-note after the primary stroke, it should be called something else ... not a Flam. A reverse-flam or some other onomatopoeic name that would describe the sound would be nice.

Terms and labels are used to help the individual understand what to play or simply what it is. To call anything a flam simply because it has a grace-note connected to it, regardless of it's position or placement in performance or notation ... to me ... very confusing (i.e. not good).  Grin  If it has no special name, call it a grace-note (or grace note) ... but not a flam.
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 08:26 AM »

The Great Flam Debate of '08!

So if I were to play:

RRLR LLRL

This is not a paradiddle? It's a diddlepara?
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 08:31 AM »

The Great Flam Debate of '08!

So if I were to play:

RRLR LLRL

This is not a paradiddle? It's a diddlepara?

No, but it does have a unique name ... it's a Single Windmill ... a Swiss Army Rudiment. Put a Flam at the beginning of that and it's a Single Flammed Mill (No. 25 on the PAS International Rudiment Sheet).  Cool
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 08:44 AM »

Just an FYI ... more off topic ...

RLRR LRLL Single Paradiddle
RLRL LRLR Inverted Paradiddle #1 (aka Over-The-Bar Paradiddle)
RRLR LLRL Single Windmill
RLLR LRRL Inverted Paradiddle #2 (aka Inside-Out Paradiddle)


So you see, if I just said to play Paradiddle, and their was no distinction between the sticking placements, all four of the above would just be Paradiddles. They are permutations of the Paradiddle sticking, used enough, that they have names given them.

If you told me to play a Flam, but wanted the grace-note after the primary stroke, I would have no idea that you wanted that by the term alone. I think Reverse-Flam is a good label personally ... IF there is enough use to merit giving it a label.
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garagerocker
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 09:58 AM »

I've certainly picked up a lot of information, which is what I hoped for when I asked the question.  Yesterday I was also told that apparently in drumline, in a flam the grace note to the back or front indicates the sticking.  I don't know whether that's correct or not, since I didn't start playing until after college.

My point in asking the question was echoed in a roundabout way - you can't play something right if you can't read it right.  So the problem becomes - are you not playing something right because you didn't understand it correctly, and could fix  your mistake if you knew how - or you understand correctly and just can't accomplish it?  Terms and labels are important because they show you what came before and are the guide for the things you might want to do in the future.  Without a common ground of understanding, there can't be communication.  Without communication, there's no learning.

I guess more of my frustration with the learning process came through than I'd hoped.  Since I was six when Louis was drumming in high school, I've got a lot to lost time to make up for and much information to learn! Smiley

Thanks for the various posts.  They just point me in new directions to gather information from.  That's what the Cafe's about, right?
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Erk
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 10:26 AM »

Bart have you mastered all these rudiments? It's something I've really been getting into. However, I saw Dave Weckl awhile ago on a DVD, and he explains how he only practiced singles, doubles, paraddidles, buzz rolls, and flam's, so those are all I've been studying in my 4 years of drumming.
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 10:39 AM »

Just to be clear, I believe Mr. Weckl's point was that he doesn't focus on the rudiments beyond the basics when practicing. I'm one of the biggest Weckl fans but there are a few other rudiments that would be worthwhile learning.  DW can do more with his left pinky than many of us can do with all limbs so don't be afraid to work on some of this other stuff also (it's there for us mere mortals).
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 11:03 AM »

Bart have you mastered all these rudiments? It's something I've really been getting into. However, I saw Dave Weckl awhile ago on a DVD, and he explains how he only practiced singles, doubles, paraddidles, buzz rolls, and flam's, so those are all I've been studying in my 4 years of drumming.

I can play and use all 40 of the PAS International Drum Rudiments (and a lot of the Swiss Army Rudiments), but "mastered"?  I don't know that I've mastered anything in my life ... except saying and doing a lot of stupid things.  Smiley

If your question was in regards to the four different types of Single Paradiddles ... I use those a lot in my drumming.
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Erk
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 12:13 PM »

No I just meant the 40. Smiley

-EML.
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 02:50 PM »

I think it's very safe to say Weckl can play all the rudiments (and more).
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 08:41 PM »

I think it's very safe to say Weckl can play all the rudiments (and more).

That would be my guess. 
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2008, 11:37 PM »

 Grin it' used to be a black art , some iv'e found up, some down, and some vague depending on the writter's hand. At the end of the day music is a guide, some of the "fly spots" iv'e had handed to me have been wing it affairs, esp jazz. I can read notation but only if it's eligable, I just watch the music paper as if I know what I'm doing and play along as best as I can by ear and usually get away with it, probally because no on else can read it either, use it for counting the bars and improvise Grin.
Here an upgrade of drumming techniques in the 70's when drum corps started taking notice of International top drummers and introduction of set down standardised rudiments has been great for the whole drumming community. Drum scores were scarce when I started in a drum corp and we often wrote out our own notation ( at our own skill level) to play along with the pipers, so at least the corp could play the same thing together. Attending seminars and having overseas guests from likes of Scottish Shotts and Dykhead bands certainly raised the level of all drummers playing and reading skills with the clearer notation of music, for the better.
 I can remember taking home scores and rewriting them putting heads on the stems  Grin

The introduction of the drum staff key showing what drums are place where for a drum kit and also indicated hand stickings opened up another door to the mystery of some of those earlier 60's fly dot  instruction books  Grin Iv'e seen drum music where sticking is notated by tail up or down for each hand? Accents just a bigger head insted of a sideways V.

Best thing to learn overall is time signature, value of notes and rests, dotted cut notes, and the rudimental signs i.e rolls, flams etc.as they apply to both monolinear and on a staff. Although only 26 standard rudiments they can sometimes be written/ scrawled  different ways too tho, likely rarer these days.

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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2008, 05:02 AM »

If you told me to play a Flam, but wanted the grace-note after the primary stroke, I would have no idea that you wanted that by the term alone. I think Reverse-Flam is a good label personally ... IF there is enough use to merit giving it a label.

Despite the authority of your encyclopedic knowledge and always sage advice, I will heretofore call it a Lamf.
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2008, 05:09 AM »

Just to be clear, I believe Mr. Weckl's point was that he doesn't focus on the rudiments beyond the basics when practicing. I'm one of the biggest Weckl fans but there are a few other rudiments that would be worthwhile learning.  DW can do more with his left pinky than many of us can do with all limbs so don't be afraid to work on some of this other stuff also (it's there for us mere mortals).

Perhaps what he's trying to get at is the idea that it's one thing to work on rudiments as a practice technique, but that when he's playing he's not thinking "uh...paradiddle...flam-a-diddle...blushda...double-flammed-mill..." He plays what he hears, and if the execution happens to be a double-flammed-mill, then so be it...
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2008, 08:04 AM »

Despite the authority of your encyclopedic knowledge and always sage advice, I will heretofore call it a Lamf.

In Drum Corps circles, this is known as a "Malf".
Which leads me to speculate ...
If you played a Ruff with the main note followed by two grace notes, would it be a "Ffur".
Or a Backwards Drag, a "Gard".
A Backwards Five Stroke Roll, an "Evif"...

I think I'll stop now. Roll Eyes
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