DRUMMER CAFE

Nice topic SIDE........

Theres a few answers to this in my opinion so here goes....my pretty pennies worth(and before anybodys says it....I aint got all the answers, far from it )

To become better I think you have to realise that there are better. Simple and to the point.

We can all become a Big Fish in a Small pond from time to time and thats not good for us.......We must be open to new ways of doing things and be prepared to examine our technique and realise that we all have weaknesses in our chops/feel and time.

We have to benchmark ourselves beonde the four walls of our own little musical worlds.

To be honest with yourself is another way we can become a more mature musician.....If the Bassist says we dropped a 16th....well he may be right.
If we have a problem with a limb/reading or execution, to be true is the only way to break down the DENIAL barrier so that we can learn.

Its also bad to get hung up on the history and experience of our playing......no one person knows everything. Regardless of training OR background there will be some techniques that can be applied better by others that may not have your background.

Humility is a wonderful tool for learning.

Try playing with musicians that are playing at a higher level than you.......If you want to play futher with these guys you gotta get some woodshead time in.

Understanding that the more we learn the less we know and that learning never stops, learning is for life. No one has ever learnt the drums but every one is learning to learn them.

Also setting yourself realistic targets and trying to stick by them....dont look at the mountain in the distance but look at the small step......you will reach the mountain but if you dont you will at least get a better view of it and you may feel thats enough(unless its Area 51 of coarse).

Listerning to drummers that are playing stuff thats out of your musical tastes. There is no law that says you cant bring what you learn back into your musical world.

Listerning to music that has no drums atall.......it can help your drumming in more ways than you could realise.

And finally (though there are many other reasons) learning another instrument aswell can bring some creativity to your drumming table.

I agree.

I often find that I work well under pressure(well to a certain extent anyway...).  I have a tendency to drop myself in at the deep end of things.  Like was previously said, working with people who are better than you is a good way to get better I've found.  

This means that when you first work with these people, the cocky young drummer that walked into the practice room thinking he's the dude- walks out a few hours later realising he's got a lot of work to do.  This has been a key part in my learning process recently.

Apart from that I have found that getting my hands in as many cookie jars as possible in as many different styles as possible has also helped me a lot.

Cool idea for a discussion mate! Tar


  

Listen to as much music as you can. By 'music' I mean every kind of music (with the possible exception of Barbara Streisand). Good music will inspire you, bad music will teach you what not to do. Ladysmith Black Mambazo, System of a Down, Tchaikovsky, Shawn Colvin, Craig Armstrong, Led Zeppelin, Duke Ellington, Wagner, Frank Sinatra, Danny Elfman - there is so much beautiful stuff out there and it will ALL rub off on you. Listen to how the drummer fits into the various pictures and how everything slots together (or not) then listen to recordings of your own band and see if you can say the same. Be self critical. Swear at yourself when you play (I do - note: be careful when wearing a head mike!) and push yourself to do better / be more solid / play less but more. Make sure what you are doing compliments the track and doesn't sound like a drum solo.

Fame should be a by-product and not a goal. Talent has its own rewards, and know that whoever or whatever you are, you are always learning.

Felix,

I would think that most of the people here have lots of talent, and talent is all very well and good, but you can have talent and still not be that great, if you don't use it! I like to think I have talent (at least, thats what people keep telling me) but I feel I am not as good as I could be, because for a long time, I just didn't actually study the drums, I just jammed, and got better, but slower than I could have done, and I still can't read music very well, and some of my basic techniques could be a lot better. What I'm trying to say here is that talent is good, but that doesnt mean you are going to be instantly good. You still need to want to become a better player, it just might come easier to you.

Misenko.

After drumming for a few years I decided I would try role playing.  I created a fictional character who was a really good drummer and then played that character during rehearsal and on stage.
It's a bit like being a waiter.  If you pretend to be a good waiter long enough, and you play the role well enough, you become a good waiter.  You may still be a disorganized clutz at home, and in your heart of hearts, but on the job you're a good waiter.
You become what you pretend to be.  

I agree felix that talent is a word used a lot, but I do honestly think a lot of people here are talented. I think Bartman is talented, I think you are probably taleneted, I mean anyone who can master an instrument HAS to have some form of talent to be able to do it! Now, I say from experience that you need to have some form of talent to be able to play drums. There was a guy I knew, played the drums for over a year. Still could barely string a straight, simple (I mean REALLY simple) rock beat together..he just couldn't do it! That may be described as something else other than lack of talent, but I'm just saying that many people here are talented individuals. If you don't want to think that, then thats cool, thats just what I beleive.

Misenko.

I don't know where I really stand on the word talent.

I think most people use it as a means to describe someone who is good at what they do ... when in actuality, talent may have little or nothing to do with it.

I don't consider myself talented. When I first started playing drums/percussion, I was LAST CHAIR in the school band. After a few years, I decided that I needed to start practicing; by the time I reached high school I was in the first chair slot. All of that is relative anyway and doesn't mean anything. It could just be that no one else was practicing!  

I've had to work VERY hard to get where I am ... so to me, talent is something I don't have. I have such a LONG way to go; I'm an average player at best.

The only people on this planet that really think I'm talented ... is the women in my family; grandmother, mother and sister!  

  For me it's always just been a matter of desire . Talent
has never been part of the formula . I always wanted to play and I've always had to put forth great efforts toward my goals . Is it talent if the first time you jump on a set you can stay in the pocket and ride ? That was about the only leg up I had in the game . Everything after that was solid effort . And you need that burning desire to keep you moving forward .
     I never hoped to be the best drummer in the world .
There is a quote by Travis Barker I think , " I never want someone to see me play and think I suck . "  That's all I ever hoped , " hey , he's a pretty good drummer !"
 
PS , I just hit the spell check and for the first time I got
     " NO MISSPELLED WORDS "   is misspelled 1 s or 2  

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't knocking your opinion when I was stating my own opinion. It has nothing to do with "knowing better" about talent; it's just my take on what it means and what it is. I'm flattered that you think I'm talented.

I don't think anyone should be saying that they ARE talented; that label should be determined by a third party ... IMO.  

Getting better is easy, you have to do only one thing --- NOT QUIT!  If you stick with it (sorry for the pun), you can only go in one direction, UP!!! (even if you have no "talent")

Hey Mateus,
 Your not the only one who does'nt own a copy of "stick control"!
 Anyway in my humble opinion, TALENT will only get you so far at anything. What's really important is the DESIRE and the NEED to play. Not everyone can become a technical genius on the drums, everyone has to find there own level and realise they're limitations.
 I think we all go through a period of worrying about our technique, and wondering if we will be as good as Vinnie or Gadd, but the important thing is to strive to be as good as YOU can be. If you can do that, you have REALLY accomplished something. I've always taken practice a bit lightly, favoring playing along to records rather than knuckling down to Moeller, and my technique is DEFINATELY not as strong as it should or could be. But I love playing, and after all, the reason I started playing was so I could play WITH other musicians, not sit at home practicing my ass off!

This may sound like rant guys but it is'nt, in fact I wish I had the dedication that you guys seem to have!

I know this is a little of the point, but thanks for listening!

Gadd makes some great points.  I understand your views on Gadd's talent.  I do however think he has some native talent, but it has definitely been elavated through his experiences.  I also agree that Vinnie's talent is more native.  His ability to hear things in his head that I can only understand on paper is uncanny.  Although I do think the musicality, groove, and chops are things he developed through HIS experiences.  Listen to recordings from 10 years ago(he would be in his 30's at this time), and compare them to recordings of the last 2 years.  It's an obvious difference in musicality, or maybe maturity.  the studio work has always been great, but I am referring to the live and studio stuff that he is allowed and/or encouraged to play "Vinnie stuff".  On the Karizma album Document, or the Dyno-Four at the Baked Potato, he is all over the kit, all around the time.  He is a mad scientist at work.  But it ALL sounds like it has a point.  It doesn't ever lose the groove, and it doesn't ever sound like he's just blowing.  THAT is growth, the man is in his 40's right?  He has grown over the years.


A more native talent would be Tony Williams.  The man was seriously one of the best musicians of the 20th century.  All of that stuff he played with miles was incredible.  In Miles' autobiography he mentions that Tony was his favorite drummer, and that Tony pushed the band, he drove the band.  He said that Tony would leave you behind if you couldn't hang.  Tony was 17 years old when he first started playing with Miles Davis.  THAT is talent.  THAT is nature blessing this young man.  THAT is beautiful!

Talent is not the only element to becoming a musician, and it certainly is not even a key ingredient to become a successful musician(whatever that means).  Talent is a key ingredient in becoming an artist.  If one approaches music to create art, talent is required.  If one is approaching music simply for fun, talent is NOT required, although it is a great help.  Drive, determination, discipline, attitude, and openess are what I beleive to be the KEY ingredients in gaining success as a musician.

I don't personally feel that 'talent' is as uncommon as some of you might believe.   I'd be willing to bet that the majority of players on this site have at least a very reasonable amount of natural talent above and beyond the average person (non-players).   Maybe that strikes some as obvious(?)  

For me, the answer rests in my belief that people -more often than not- express and maintain an interest in those things in life in which they excel.  
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In talent we are considering:

1. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment.  

2. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality
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----The problem with this dictionary description of talent is that they've expressed 'innate ability' and 'artistic accomplishment' as one.   They are in fact two separate issues.  

The question is....exactly what or who do we compare ourselves to...where's the yardstick?   'Superior' to who?   Successful drummers?   Non-drummers?  Well...unfortunately there is no yardstick.   (Except for those WFD people!)

Comparing our 'talent' to other drummers can be a very subjective call -someone mentioned the 'nature/nurture' argument.  EXACTLY!   We all have different life experiences; cultural backgrounds; access to education; willingness to practice;  parental and peer support; time to practice; access to other musicians, etc, etc, etc.   These many differences quickly distort our comparison to others when measuring 'talent.'  

Without doubt, some people are born with more 'natural' talent than others.   It's much easier perhaps to identify this in young children singing (as opposed to drumming).  --Some can hit the notes with ease  -others just don't get it at all.  

Part of my belief again is that those who CAN hit the notes when singing tend to develop their skills further.  Those who CAN'T more often have little interest in 'finding' or developing their talent (or rather lack thereof).    It's not much fun dedicating ourselves, our time and our money at stuff in which we suck!    The human race is more practical than that.   This is also why I tend to believe the vast majority of you are likely talented.  

There's also the matter of 'positive conditioning'  (Pavlov's dog)  This also falls under the 'nurture' category.  -There's always confidence building verbal and material rewards from others for those things we tend to do very well.   If many of you players were told you 'didn't have it' by the first 10 people who heard you play and who's opinions meant something to you -you'd probably be posting over at the 'Motor Trends Cafe.'  

Once you've decided to stay with your game....whether it's basketball, biology or drumming   --Confidence and belief in yourself is a much more pertinent state of mind and a drastically more practical conscious exercise than worrying whether or not you have talent or not.  

To arrive at being a confident and successful player, you first need to accept (or believe) that you are indeed quite talented..... and then completely remove the whole concept from your psyche.    The self-assignment to being 'talented' doesn't mean jack squat once you've ingrained into your belief system the point that you are an able player and have great potential.   The underlying belief in your talent kicks doors wide open in so many ways....it allows confidence to happen.   The non-belief in your natural abilities is the beginning of the end.    

***Another interesting topic would be 'genius.'   Where 'talent' might only occur (IMO) in 5 to 10% of a given population regarding any specific activities (such as drumming)  -'Genius'  is more like 1 in 100,000.    Again, it's all so subjective and difficult to measure.    Oddly enough, I've never heard a mainstream comment regarding any drummer or singer being distinguished  as a genius.   Seems the stringed instrumentalists are stealing our fire!    

I agree that genius is an overused term. When I studied physics and philosophy in college it became clear that there really were no geniuses. Everyone was standing on the shoulders of everyone else, even Einstein. (Interesting note, popular opinion is that Newton invented calculus. What's not widely known is that Leibnitz also invented it at the same time.)

Same thing goes with drumming and with musicians, composers, etc. Some have the vision that others don't have, but none are creating out of a vaccum. They're influenced by those who came before them.

But used in the watered down definition that's popular today, I suppose you could put Zappa in a lighter "genius" category. I wouldn't put Miles there; in my opinion, he's great more because of the people he had around him. I'd be more inclined to place someone like Lee "Scratch" Perry in the genius category, a guy who established something where nothing was there before (a vaccum). Here's a guy who wasn't a part of any scene, didn't necessarily have amazing players around him ('cept Bob Marley, but that didn't last long). He was just an insane freak with his little studio who changed reggae forever.