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Author Topic: Grip Questions  (Read 1603 times)
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Scott
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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2003, 07:55 AM »

This also makes me reiterate my curiosity about why you even want to bother to learn to play traditional. I can understand a trad player wanting to learn matched, but not vice versa.

Well, as we all know, a 'good' reason is always arguable.  So with that, my reason for switching to traditional to matched a few years ago, was because I made the decision to 'start from scratch'.  I was at a point in my playing career where I just wasn't happy with my technique and finally became honest with myself that my stick control was horrendous.  

Thus, I sought out a teacher and explained that I wanted to start all over again as if I'd never played before.  With that, I was presented with the question of "what grip do you want to use?"  Well, I chose traditional because this was also part of my 'starting over' mentality of doing it 'right'.  

Well, to become a 'real drummer' this is what I felt I needed to do.  It's as simple as that.  Besides, it was something I thought hard about for a while and also took into consideration what kind of grip some of the drummers I admired used (most were traditional grip players or used both).  In addition, I considered myself a drumming failure, which at the time included matched grip.  Finally, I wanted to study brushes and my teacher did recommend using traditional, which I had also had not so very good results with my brush playing matched grip previously.  

So for me, I guess it was all a mental thing and I don't really have any other reason to justify switching except out of personal preference.

Bottom line for me currently, is that matched is still preferable for rock or beat-oriented applications and traditional is preferred for more technical and dynamic applications.  Fortunately, like Mr. A mentioned, I do have a regular rock gig two to three times a week where I do use matched.  My fills are terrible, but the beats are consistent.  I have a jazz gig (100% brushes and hand drumming) as well where I use traditional.  Then, when I practice, I practice traditional.  

In light of what's been stated in this thread and what B-man stated in his last post, it seems that drummers who use both probably have a primary grip they prefer/practice with and then simply use the secondary/other grip(s) 'on the job' as it applies.  What I can do from now on, is rather than practice everything with both grips, start practicing those things that I'm currently using matched for (the grooves and those associated fills).  

This just gives me an even greater respect for these guys who use both grips well.  I could never imagine having THAT much talent.  
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2003, 08:04 AM »

If you have a grip, trad or matched, and it's working for you, why bother learning the other?

I think I agree with that.

I learned Traditional grip when I was first learning to play. This is how I played all through high school as well. It wasn't until I started college as a Music Major that my instructor suggest that I may want to develop Matched and make the switch. His reasoning (which is now mine as well) is that if you are playing mallet instruments, timpani, etc., the grips used with these instruments are very close to Matched.

Now with that said, I could contradict myself by saying that the Stevens grip (4-mallet technique) is closer to Traditional grip because the basis of the motion in this grip is the rotation of the wrist (like turning a door knob) ... and it's the same in both hands.  You could also say that if you use French grip on timpani, the motion use is the rotation of the wrist ... Traditional grip muscles again.

So ... it goes both ways. Personally, I think if you are what I call a Total Percussionist, you should develop Matched grip. If you want to play Traditional, you should practice that too! If you only play drumset, then pick the grip that works for you and for the styles you play.

Many Traditional grip drummers DO flip the stick(s) over to Matched grip when they need more "power" or "volume". This isn't to say that you can't play loud with Traditional, but that many people feel more comfortable switching grips for certain things. I could insert a long lists of professional, household names who do this. But, you won't find Matched grip players switching over to Traditional very often, unless they develop the Traditional grip early on.

Like I said earlier, I learned Traditional grip first, then Matched. I started to only use Traditional grip for jazz ... the rest of the time Matched was used. Now ... I use Matched exclusively ... only using the Traditional grip for playing jazz brushes ... or the ocassional lesson when a student is wanting to learn Traditional.

So all that to say ... I agree ... choose the grip that works best for you ... and use it.

Side note: I use Stevens grip on marimba, Burton grip on vibes ... but more specifically, I notice that if I play jazz marimba, I prefer Burton grip ... and if playing classical vibes, I prefer Stevens grip. So like Traditional and Matched, my mallet grips seem to coincide more with the genre of music I'm playing rather than the instrument itself. The grip tends to help  invoke a mood and/or approach that I want when playing various styles. Stevens and Burton grips are as different as Matched and Traditional ... to me.
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2003, 08:23 AM »

Scott - thanks for the good explanation of your choice. Here's a series of exercises to work on with BOTH grips - each is aimed at strengthening the left hand in a practical way, developing its ability to add subtlelty to your groove through dynamic stick control.

(The rhythm for each of these is straight 16ths. Capital letters are accents. IMPORTANT: Make as big a difference between accents and non-accents as you can - for example, try to make the non-accents sound like ghost notes, and play the accents as rimshots at your normal backbeat volume)


L r r l   L r r l   L r r l   L r r l (work this up to a full roll tempo)

r l L l    r l L l    r l L l    r l L l   (also play it as: L l r l    L l r l    L l r l    L l r l)

L l l r    L l l r    L l l r    L l l r

R l r l    L l r L    r l l r    L l r l (be careful on sticking and accents on this)

R l L r    L l r L    r l l R    L l r l (ditto)


Hope you have fun with these...
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2003, 08:25 AM »

You know, Billy Cobham is one of the few players out there who has really mastered both grips. In fact, Billy can play numerous grips and variations of them (ie. Reversed Traditional, Double Traditional, etc.).

I don't know the real names for the grip variations that Billy uses; the above names are my own descriptive names.
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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2003, 08:31 AM »

I was always taught matched.  I toyed with traditional for awhile but I just can't get into it.  I have to tell myself that it is ok I can't play traditional over and over.

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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2003, 08:33 AM »

You know, Billy Cobham is one of the few players out there who has really mastered both grips. In fact, Billy can play numerous grips and variations of them (ie. Reversed Traditional, Double Traditional, etc.).

Ditto for Simon Phillips. I saw him walk up to a practice pad and play BLISTERINGLY fast rolls with EACH of those grips, at a tempo I could never come near. Amazing.

Some guys' hands are just made for drumming. I think mine were made for plumbing.
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2003, 08:35 AM »

[Some guys' hands are just made for drumming. I think mine were made for plumbing.
LOL, then you're probably one of the best plumbing drummers around!
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Ratamatatt
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2003, 11:40 AM »

I'll say this, when I started playing, my first teachers all of whom used a traditional grips, told me that a traditional grip was outdated due to modern marching equipment as described by Mr. A, and that matched grip was probably the better approach for drum kit.

Well, to this day I regret not learning to play with a traditional grip better than I am able.  First, a traditional grip is more effective on brushes.  Second, I find that, for whatever reason (brain wiring?), when I play traditional, I have better independance and find that my comping is more creative, or at least different than the ideas I come up with using a matched grip.  

Bottom line, I think it's a good idea to learn both.

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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2003, 12:19 PM »

Some guys' hands are just made for drumming. I think mine were made for plumbing.

Kind of brings a whole new meaning to the crack of a drum, eh?

"Yessire, I'd like a nice plumber's crack sound from my snare drum."  Grin
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Ratamatatt
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2003, 02:16 PM »

Some guys' hands are just made for drumming. I think mine were made for plumbing.

Kind of brings a whole new meaning to the crack of a drum, eh?

"Yessire, I'd like a nice plumber's crack sound from my snare drum."  Grin

That congures up all sorts of lovely images!

Ratamatatt
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alanwatkinsuk
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2003, 03:11 PM »

I don't know about America of course but if Mr Acrolite was "really" made for plumbing (and lived in the Czech Republic) what I do know for certain is that he would  be a damned sight richer.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

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Scott
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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2003, 03:57 PM »

Scott - thanks for the good explanation of your choice. Here's a series of exercises to work on with BOTH grips - each is aimed at strengthening the left hand in a practical way, developing its ability to add subtlelty to your groove through dynamic stick control.

(The rhythm for each of these is straight 16ths. Capital letters are accents. IMPORTANT: Make as big a difference between accents and non-accents as you can - for example, try to make the non-accents sound like ghost notes, and play the accents as rimshots at your normal backbeat volume)


L r r l   L r r l   L r r l   L r r l (work this up to a full roll tempo)

r l L l    r l L l    r l L l    r l L l   (also play it as: L l r l    L l r l    L l r l    L l r l)

L l l r    L l l r    L l l r    L l l r

R l r l    L l r L    r l l r    L l r l (be careful on sticking and accents on this)

R l L r    L l r L    r l l R    L l r l (ditto)


Hope you have fun with these...


Just wanted to bring this back up to let you all know that these exercises are EXTREMELY beneficial.  HUGE kudos to Mr. Acrolite for this.  I've been really working on these for the past few weeks and can tell a significant improvement in technique, control and left hand strength.  

If you perform these very strict to Mr. A's guidelines, they will pay dividends.

Thanks, Mr. A!!  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2003, 08:22 PM »

L r r l   L r r l   L r r l   L r r l (work this up to a full roll tempo)

r l L l    r l L l    r l L l    r l L l  

...etc....

Just wanted to bring this back up to let you all know that these exercises are EXTREMELY beneficial.  HUGE kudos to Mr. Acrolite for this.  

Glad you're enjoying them. I use that second pattern a lot on gigs.

Play that exercise as 8th notes, with the left hand on the snare and the right on the hihat, playing the hat half open. Add right hand quarter notes on 2 and 4 (where the left is accented), add kick drum on 1 and 3, and you've got a great uptempo rock groove ala Bonham's Rock and Roll. Tighten up the hat and the groove sounds great on country-oriented "train" songs like Clapton's Lay Down Sally, or Willie Nelson's On the Road Again, etc. The groove sounds cool, and the left hand gets a major workout.

Also, try playing the left hand part of that pattern as a shuffle instead of as evenly spaced 8th notes, adding quarter notes on the ride and on the bass drum. Keep the left hand accent strong, and try the shuffle at a variety of tempos.

Try a "loose" shuffle - where the feel is triplet-oriented, and also try it "tighter" - with more of a dotted-8th followed by a 16th feel (if that makes sense).
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