DRUMMER CAFE

...and yet, when you see him play that setup, it's a marvelously efficient arrangement of the drums and cymbals.  Yes, it looks quite unorthodox, but based on seeing him play, it works.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, there's a picture on Bill's web site:  http://www.bbprod.demon.co.uk/images/photos/005large.jpg

_{James, I adjusted the URL so it would point directly to the photo.}

I set my kit up so that I can reach everything, while keeping my elbows down ... in what I call a quasi-fetal position. This is the most relaxed state you arms can be in. The only exception to my set-up is the Bell of the Ride cymbal. I have enough "goodies" that I'm not able to put the Ride where it needs to be to have the elbows down while playing the Bell. I can, however, play my Ride with the elbows down. All of this is my whole relaxed/ergonomic philosophy.

Most of you have seen my standard set-ups, so I won't post them here. If you haven't you can go to my website and check out http://bartelliott.com/set-up.html

I have a set-up that I use for Solo Performances which involves a complete drumkit, plus 3 congas, bongos, djembe, timbales, gongs ... plus a bunch of hand held stuff.

Here's a couple of shots, but not of the entire rig (unfortunately).


The photos were taken at a solo performance that I did for a Youth Summer Camp. I played a solo composition that lasted about 10 minutes, along with a complete multimedia presentation of lights, fog and video. I did four performances, once a week for four weeks back in the Summer of 2000.

_{Please disregard the finger prints all over my cymbals.}

Well I hope you use both of your legs and arms if you've got them!  

Are you talking about using your Right Foot on the Kick Drum and your Left Hand on the HiHat (Right Hand on Snare) when playing basic grooves? If this is the case, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Some people refer to it as "open handed grip" ... which isn't a very good description in my opinion ... other than the hands are open and not crossed, but it's not a grip. Maybe Open Hand Position or something ... who knows.

Please give some more details if this is not what you are talking about.

BumBum ... (lol ... that's a funny nickname) ... there are tons of guys who play open-handed while still using a right handed drumkit set-up.

• Billy Cobham
• Lenny White
• Simon Phillips
• Dennis Chambers
• numerous others ....

They all do what you are doing.

It's just going to take practice on your part with your fills ... or start putting your Right hand on the hihat.

I personally do both. When I use my Left hand on the Hi-Hat ... my fills start with which ever hand needs to start. Sometimes it's the left, sometimes it's the right. If my left hand is leading the fill, then I may end up crashing with my left hand, but definitely not always.

I would encourage you to keep working at it until you find what works best for you. I don't think the set-up, although I can't see yours, is the problem.

You may have to throw in a double stroke during your fill so that you end on the correct hand. Practice playing a groove and crashing with left or right hand. Be able to do both. Work with simple fills and crash with either hand, then go right back into your groove.

Keep us posted ... you'll get it happening ... it just takes some time and a little patience.

FWIW, he used the very same setup you'll find on his web site, when I saw Earthworks play at the Bottom Line in New York City last May.  The hi-hat incorporates a remote pedal - I was surprised to see/hear it work as well as it did; Bruford's such a precise drummer, I'm sure he would have rejected that sort of pedal if it didn't work well (accurately) for him.

I haven't seen Bruford perform since - I don't know if he's still using the setup.

i definitely wasn't saying i didn't believe you! ...i didn't notice the HH had a remote pedal, prob. 'cause  i've never even tried one. i'm surprised you can get good feel/response outta those things, but i'm sure you all wouldn't use them if you couldn't. about Bill Bruford being precise...the last time i saw him (i believe in 2000, Catalina Bar+Grill in Hollywood) he counts off a tune...oops, turns out he's playing one tune and the band another. start again ...he has a great sense of humor. super nice guy, and certainly one of my all time fav's/biggest influences.

back to the original subject though...i'm probably going to double post this over at musicplayer just 'cause i'm curious, but...i've been stuggling with a particular overhead micing technique, described in detail at http://www.recording.org/cgi-local/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000260&p=

my problem is the 2 drum sticks above the snare head measurement that recorderman uses as the standard. this puts the mics at forehead height for me, and there's no way i can play without hitting them...often! plus, it's a distraction to look thru the mics at some cymbals. i have to go significantly higher to keep the OH's out of harms way.

the method he describes is, of course, very flexible, and he apparently uses the 2 stick measurement because it's fast and simple...but also because it works almost all the time it seems. keep in mind that this guy is one of 'the shiit' recordists and works with 'the' players/artists etc.

so what i'd like to know (and am asking in a typically wandering, long winded fashion...sorry) is basically, what are your measurements? for instance, i'm only 6' tall and more legs than torso, my seat is at 25", and the front edge of my snare is at 26" (there's a tilt to it, so this is the low point). i'd like to know how this compares to others' setups, and then also where 2 sticks above your snare would put the mics comapred to your head...and would that OH position work for you?

thanx...

ha...what an annoying thing for a forum to do...ok...gonna copy and paste the important parts...it's gonna be long though, 'cuase it'll cover a few posts worth of stuff...

 posted November 02, 2001 10:26 AM                    
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here's my trick. It's fast and it works perfect every time.

1. sit on the drummer's throne/stool.
2.Hold both drum sticks end-to-end so that you have a measuring device ( aprox. 16"...give or take).
3. place the tip of one end of your new double- length-drums-stick-measuring-device in the center of the snare with the "drum sticks" held vertically.
4. The other end will now(depending on how tall you are) be a little above and in front of your forehead.
5. Place a mic here. I've been aiming it down at the snare as of late...
6. With the tip of the "drum sticks" still in the center of the snare, angle the "stick back and down, so that's it's to the right of your right shoulder ( about a 45 degreee angle)
7. Use amic cable. Measure the distance of the over the snare mic to the center of the kick drum. Check that the "right shoulder" mic is also the same distance.
8. Doulble check the snare distance again.

9. As far as where to face them...experiment. I like the extra snare reinforcement, so as of late I've been facing them both at the snare. facing them at the rack and floor toms also produces good results.
10. one last thing to check. with headphones on, both "OH" mics in your cue mix (only them) .fine tune the placement (i.e. adjust their orientation...usualliy just moving the shoulder one) untill the kick is in the center of your "image"
11. When your done you'll notice that at first glance, this looks very weird and unsymmetrical. Yet it is very symmetrical in it's result. A. Rack toms are higher off the floor than floor toms, so this arrangement actually follows the contour of the toms as they really are. Standard OH micing doesn't take this into account, and as such are usually no more than "cymbal mics". Most of them time you see mixers pulling the OH's down to -10 or more in the mix because of the over abundance of cymbals and badly phased snare/kick/toms in the "OH's". I tend to focus my OH on being a cornerstone of my whole kit sound, and as such, and have spent great pains into making the snare/kick/tom elements speak as well as possible. I guess you could say I'm a "drum bigot". It's just that if you "ignore" the cymbals you actually are going to hear them anyway...like the hat, there just so @$%# loud

What this has done is:
1. Place the snare & the kick in the center when you pan these mics hard left and right.
2. Place the overheads in a position which is in-phase with the kick,snare and overheads.
3. balanced the over heads so that the Rack and floor Toms (as well as all cymbals) are correctly ballanced.

this is actually a great "picture" of the kit at this point. maybe a hair of Top end (depending on what mics your using) and a little this, and a Kick mic. BUT whatever you add (snare mics, toms, etc) you'll mow be inphase. This also makes your snare & toms louder inrelation to the cymbals & is more of a true OH mic set-up (Not just "cymbal" mic's )

It may look weird but try it...it trulelly ROCKS

If you use a boom Stand behind the drummer, with the boom over their head, you can get the mic into position, and they don't hit it ( at least not with me yet). This will place the snare mic a few inches in front of and above their forhead.

The last time i did this (last week) I angled both of the mics towards the snare; then moving the right sholuder mic (with headphones on) intill I got the kick in the center of my "image". I've had equal success by aiming them at the Rack and Floor toms. For Me it's a question of getting the kick and snare right. after that everything else seems to fall into place. With all the variations in cymbals and their placement not to mention their abillity at being heard, I really dont worry about them. This technique takes a well ballaced stereo "image" that puts the snare and kick in the center, places the Rack and Floor in balance, keeps the phase right, AND puts the cymbals in the way I like for free. Besides if the song calls for a lot of ride, I'll uasually have a SM7 spotting that as well...just to bring it into the forground if necessary.


so, there you go

well, i can't seem to vote in any polls here, so maybe a pool will work

my only concern about this whole shpeal is that this measurement does work for most guys...so i'm just trying to find out if my setup is, like, really weird or something. i'm an engineer, so i have no prob. with the methodoligy...

geez...this thread was about kit setups, and i'm just trying to see if mine is setup weird or something....forget i mentioned the micing thing at all