|
sidereal
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2002, 01:55 PM » |
|
For the record, I'm not wrong either.  Interesting... could it be that we're all right, and that, depending on the way it's notated, 5:4 designates EITHER a polyrhythm OR an odd grouping? Afterall, you guys aren't looking at what I'm looking at. The freaking 5:4 is NOT going over the entire freaking measure, it's going over the freaking 5-note group of 16ths. freaking... freaking.... OK, I'm losing it. But I'm right dammit! I'm right! At least I'm right according to the lessons I've learned from DA MAN! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
rlhubley
Guest
|
|
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2002, 02:24 PM » |
|
well, I'm not taking this one any further. Just let it be noted that i humbley disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member
 Online
Posts: 12492
How have you bean burrito?
|
|
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2002, 02:59 PM » |
|
For the record, I'm not wrong either. Interesting... could it be that we're all right, and that, depending on the way it's notated, 5:4 designates EITHER a polyrhythm OR an odd grouping? Afterall, you guys aren't looking at what I'm looking at. The freaking 5:4 is NOT going over the entire freaking measure, it's going over the freaking 5-note group of 16ths. freaking... freaking.... OK, I'm losing it. But I'm right dammit! I'm right! At least I'm right according to the lessons I've learned from DA MAN! Okay ... this is NOT what I feel that you are saying in your earlier posts. That is called PHRASING. When you say 5-note group, that sounds like quintuplet, which you did not refute. So what you are saying is that is that you are actually playing is 5:4 phrasings or groups of 4 sixteenth notes, phrased in 5? If so, there's a big difference. Sorry to be picky, but we have to get our terms right since we can't see what you are talking about. Here are 4 groups of Quintuplets, which is not a polyrhythm.  Here is an example of 5:4 in which quintuplets are being played with accents on every 4th note, which creates a 5:4 polyrhythm between the accented notes and the kick drum.  In this example, there is a 4/4 filled with sixteenth-notes. Here you can see that accents have been placed every fifth note to imply a phrasing in 5. The label of 5:4 is NOT correct in this example. It should just have the bracket with a 5.  Lastly, an example of 5:4 used correctly. The 5:4 tells the performer that the 5 quarters notes are to be played in the span of 4 quarters in 4/4 time.  Do any of these examples look like what you are seeing in Chafee's book? Unfortunately, I don't have the books, but I should.  I know we got way off from your original post, but if something can be described as 5:4, it should be for polyrhythms or to show that there are too many notes in a bar and that they should be played in the span of the second number; five notes being played in the time that you would normally play 4 notes of the same note value. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The only way to have a friend is to be one.
|
|
|
|
sidereal
Guest
|
|
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2002, 03:53 PM » |
|
A very thorough reply Bart! And thanks for the time. Once again: Nowhere did I say I was talking about polyrhythms. Let's put the idea of polyrhythms to rest, that's something entirely different. What I'm talking about is your first example, which I (and Gary) call "groupings." This is the term that I used in my original post, and the term that is in the book I mentioned. Using the term quintuplets is limiting, IMHO, because then you're only referring to fives. I think my use of the 5:4 is what caused the confusion and made people think this was a polyrhythm. It is not a polyrhythm that I'm talking about, and I'm not going to say that word anymore today. Bart, in your first example, where you have "5" over the 16ths... Gary notates it as 5:4. I'm sorry if that freaks you all out but that's the way he does it and that's the way I learned to notate it. Go into a drum store and look at the book. In it, he gives his reasons why: "The first [note] refers to the number of notes in the grouping, while the second indicates the amount of time allotted for these notes." That's just the way he does it, and you can't fault me for learning it that way. Now... back to the original post look at Bart's first example and instead of playing those in simple RLRLR LRLRL RLRLR LRLRL try using double strokes. It hurts the brain. It goes: RRLLR RLLRR LLRRL LRRLR What that does is it fools your brain a bit because you're PLAYING THE SECOND NOTE OF THE DOUBLE ON THE QUARTER NOTE. Sorry for the shouting, but this was the whole trick to the exercise. Then try it with triplets (but it won't fit in common or cut time, you have to do six quarters before it comes around again). Anyway, again, thanks Bart. The thread turned out to be even more mentally challenging than the exercise. But it was fun. I like mental challenges. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 12492
How have you bean burrito?
|
|
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2002, 07:30 PM » |
|
Yeah, I think this has been a great thread for discussion. I understand now why Chafee does this, which goes right with what I was saying in Example 4 of my last post. Quintuplets and Septuplets are so common these days that it's redundant to use 5:4 or 7:4 when playing sixteenth note groupings. Using the number 5 with or without a bracket says it all ... there's no reason for the number 4 to even be mentioned. As in the final example, I used what Chafee uses to show the 5 quarters in the span of 4 quarters; he just did it with 5 sixteenths in the span of 4 sixteenths. My final point that I would like to make is that Chafee's way of notating is not a standard. If someone is teaching this type of notation in schools of music, it's news to me. All of the published materials I've ever seen, and I'm referring to music ... not method books, use what I have described. This also includes Pete Magadini's book "Musicians Guide to Polyrhythms", as well as countless works of percussion literature. Perhaps Chafee is doing this as a learning tool for others to better understand these "odd groupings". The fact that he has to explain what the numbers mean seems to imply (to me at least) that he realizes this is not a standard method. I'd be curious as to how he would notate polyrhythm ratios. I think I've pleaded my case as best I can for whatever it's worth. I'm passing the baton. Great thread gentlemen!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The only way to have a friend is to be one.
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
 Offline
Posts: 8656
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2002, 04:01 AM » |
|
I tried your pattern this morning side. It's cool, but I keep "automatically" wanting to put a diddle figure in to cycle the measure back to my right.
RRLRL RRLRL etc.
But it sounds nice and gnarly just the same.
OH and one more thing...if anyone plays these figures, even correctly, the whole band will turn around and yell
YOUR WRONG! too funny
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 8656
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2002, 03:59 AM » |
|
Well, side- I wrote out your pattern and it made it a lot easier to play. It sounds cool and works well into some of my techniques (LOL- I stole your pattern idea).
I can play it well over a samba ostinato and I'm working on playing it withing a swing context.
THANKS- you are all right.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
|
sidereal
Guest
|
|
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2002, 09:18 AM » |
|
No problem Felix... btw, my girlfriend thinks you're funny. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 8656
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2002, 08:12 AM » |
|
She sounds like a nice lady. I feel like I almost know you two!
Oh, btw...I'll have to scan the Chaffee book page I have explaining how he notates quintuplets. I checked it out...5:4. He notates eighth note trips as 3:2 and sextuplets as 6:4 if I'm not mistaken (quarter being the value)...I'll have to post it.... It's strange.
ciao
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
|
jda
Guest
|
|
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2002, 07:55 PM » |
|
Hey, this is a great discussion..a little "old" I see.. but I'm New here so I thought I'd bring it back up..
It's just a matter of semantics (right word?) when Chaffee puts 5:4 over the figure. 5 in the same time as 4. The parenthesis just go over the 5 sixteenths. So it's 5 sixteenths in the time of 4 sixteenths.
Anyway nice to be here.....gonna go look around...
Joe
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 8656
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2002, 11:16 AM » |
|
Unless, I'm missing something As usual, yes. It's lots of fun, for example, to play a 3 beat motive that sounds like a waltz in a 4 bar 4/4 drum break (all the while, you are counting in 4/4 time in your head), and see which of the other players can keep track of where one is when the break is over. Although the quarter notes line up, it is an odd beat rhythm within an even beat rhythm and therefore a polyrhythm.
You are mixing up the term "polyrhythm" with "metric modulation". Get it straight. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 8656
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2002, 11:34 AM » |
|
While cleaning the goldfish filter I had a moment of insight spurred by the rat's last post.
If one was really looking to make a happening break modulate the meter with a permutated polyrhythm (you make it) and top it off within 5 or 7 subdivisions (maybe even put those subdivisions into diddle form while displacing the voices of course!).
That would be cool.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
|
Theo
Guest
|
|
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2002, 01:51 PM » |
|
...
What happened to your picture? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Misenko
Guest
|
|
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2002, 02:11 PM » |
|
He shaved his face off.....  Misenko. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 12492
How have you bean burrito?
|
|
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2002, 09:18 PM » |
|
Bart, I think your definition of polyrhythm is too narrow. Don't know how that can be; here's what I said: Poly means "many" ... Polyrhythm means "many rhythms". For there to be a polyrhythm there has to be two opposing rhythms played at the same time. It doesn't get any more basic and open than that. In fact, in an Elvin video I have, he uses this same definition almost verbatim. Polyrhythms can exist within one pulse in the measure, across an entire bar, across many measures, etc. All I did was expound on the difference between polyrhythms, poly-phrasing, and odd note groupings. The bottom line is that for it to qualify as a polyrhythm, you have to have two opposing rhythms going on at the same time. Sometimes, one of the opposing rhythms is just the pulse of the music. For example, if you are in 4/4 time, it would be the quarter-note. It could be the eighth-note, or whatever you want. Personally, I like to make a label distinction between all of this ... basically only for educational purposes in my clinics or with my students. Polyrhythm is such a broad term to use for the three varieties I described previously. If you want to call them all polyrhythms, you would be correct ... as long as there are two opposing rhythms occurring at the same time; otherwise, the POLY or MANY rhythms will not be fully realized. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The only way to have a friend is to be one.
|
|
|
|
