DRUMMER CAFE

The simplest way, in my mind, would be to break the meter down into sub-groups.

In your example of 5/4, you could think of it as a bar of 3/4 and a bar of 2/4 ... or vice versa ... 2/4 and 3/4.

I would choose the order of the two sub-groups based upon the natural phrasing of the song or rhythm section comp figures. In rare instances, you may have 4/4 plus 1/4 ... or rarer still ... only able to count it in 5/4 with no sub groupings.

EXAMPLE: In the Dave Brubeck tune "Take Five" ... the song can obviously be felt as 3+2 or a bar 3/4 plus a bar of 2/4 ... all because of the melody, as well as the rhythm section accompaniment.

I don't recommend that someone should ALWAYS think of odd meter in this fashion; they need to learn to count and feel the odd meter as it is (for a variety of reasons that I won't go into now). It's fine to use the sub-groupings as a tool to learn and understand odd meter, but to rely on it will hurt you as a musician in the long term.

If you had to tell the drummer (student) where the downbeat (s) are located in Take 5, how would you explain that. I played a gig once and they pulled that tune out of the hat, introduced the song. I wasn't asked if I could play it. I never played it before but thought I'd give it a whirl. No one knew I was faking it, but it was the longest 3.5 or so minutes of the night.

My philosophy has been and always will be that if you can't say it, you can't really play it. By this I mean that to fully understand what it is you are doing, you need to be able to communicate it verbally. If you can't do that ... how can your brain take the final step in trying to get all your limbs to respond and recreate what it is you are trying to do? Being able to count, sing or verbalize the pattern (for example) that you wish to play means that you AT LEAST have a basic understanding ... enough to take it to the next level and try to get the entire body to comply.

Jazz musicians typically take this approach when it comes to improvisation. A true improv master can sing BEFORE he puts the same thing on the instrument. I can think of no higher achievement than to be able to play EXACTLY what you hear in your head. The music of India is an EXCELLENT example of an entire music culture understanding the importance of verbalizing.

So, I would have the drummer sing the melody or the comp rhythm. There is a natural weight on beat one, which gives "Take 5" (and any song for that matter) it's meter.  If I were to sing the comp pattern (ala scat) ... it might go something like this:

Verbalizing this syllable pattern gives a natural feel of: Long-short, long-short,  long long. Because of the bass line figure and the harmonic structure, you can easily hear where the emphasis lies ... and where it is going.

Next I would have the student sing this "scat" line out-loud and clap the rhythm in unison with what they are singing. Then put some weight on the first syllable, as well as clapping a little louder on beat one.

I sometimes have them count the beats, but often times they get confused of which number they are on. When it comes to performing the tune, it doesn't matter whether you can say the right number for the given beat, what matters is that you feel the 5/4 phrasing and know where beat ONE is!

If you decide that you want to count this out in 5/4, the basic accompaniment (comp) for "Take Five" goes like this:  1 & - & 3 - 4 - 5 -

The basic bass line goes like this: 1 - - 4 5

These are the beats that of the bar where the notes fall ... NOT ... the scale values; don't confuse the two.

You could clap out the bass' rhythm while counting out loud 1 2 3 4 5. It would go something like this:
The bold numbers would be the ones you clap.

This is just one of many approaches in helping someone understand, feel and hear the odd meter. The best method, in my opinion, would be to have a good grasp of reading music. With the rhythm being notated, it's quickly very clear what is going on. Just another GREAT reason to have strong music reading skills.

Well, because that isn't always true. Saying that it's longer and shorter by 1, 2, 3, etc. is rather obvious; but how can that help someone PLAY the groove. If you don't play, listen and feel odd time signatures ... it's rather difficult at first. Breaking all down into sub-groups helps to understand, hear and play the odd timings.

What are you going to do with 7/8? Are you going to say that 7/8 is just one less than 8/8? So what is 8/8? Not everyone realizes that 8/8 is basically the same as 4/4. When you start moving through different time signatures, it's a good thing to find the common denominator ... and break it down as described in earlier posts.

Rhythm IS math!

So are you also saying that no matter what the odd meter or poly-rhythm may be, you've always been able to just sit down and play it perfectly without having to break it down?

This thread was originally about teaching others how to handle odd rhythm. If they could do what you are suggesting, I wouldn't think there would need to be any explanation. It's rather obvious that 5/4 is just one more quarter in the bar than 4/4. So what would need to be explained more than that? To me, the fact that I don't know anyone who has just sat down and played 5/4 (as an example) without coming to an understanding of it first, is reason enough to not subscribe to what you are saying.

My brain is great a math, but that doesn't automatically mean that my arms and legs will move accordingly without some practice.

If I told you to play me a 13/8 syncopated groove, are you telling me that you could just sit down and play it ... assuming you've never done it before? I serious doubt that is what you are saying here.

Just for the record, I do get your point. It's easy for me too ... NOW ... but it wasn't always that way.

Another technique that helps me with odd time sigs. is to S-L-O-W it W-A-Y down!  I agree wholeheartedly with the concept: "if ya can't say it, ya can't play it" and being able to communicate our musical thoughts verbally!  With that in mind, none of us was born able to speak like an auctioneer or a radio ad guy reading the disclaimer at the end of a car commercial!  It takes time (pardon the pun).  Don't get frustrated if you find it necessary to Molasses-ize a groove til ya get it!  

just a thought.

ts