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Gadda
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« on: March 05, 2003, 06:18 PM » |
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Actually i have 2 questions 1 what the difference between a open roll and a closed? 2 The five stroke roll, seven stroke etc up to seventeen should they be imediatly after each other... in other words... the five stroke roll should it be ^ ^ RRLLRLLRRL or is there a little pause between them ^ ^ RRLLR LLRRL Hope i dont bore you too much with my stupid questions  |
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philips_hed
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2003, 08:16 PM » |
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http://www.vicfirth.com/education/rudiments.htmlGreat question! or, i do not know. The Vic Firth site has the "40 basic rudiments". This might not even apply. `Just wanted to make sure everybody knew about it. i am sure there is a much better answer to your question, because, i joined this page to ask & learn from similar questions.
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Gadda
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2003, 08:54 PM » |
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nice link !
I looked at the rudiments there and found out that theres a pause between them :=)
Thanks
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BlackEvovii
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2003, 09:39 PM » |
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Open roll are singles played back and forth on each hand
RLRLRLRL
closed is double stroke rolls alternating again
RRLLRRLL
the 5 stroke roll is played like
1eRRLL2e
RRLL+a etc
the 7 stroke roll is played most commonly on the upbeats (&) but counted as a 16th note triplet
1eLLRRLL2 &tl
9 is one sub divsion of a quarter note
RRLLRRLL 1e+a
oh and on and on
as for pauses yes there are pauses, but as you go up the pauses become shorter and shorter until there is none.
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Gadda
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2003, 12:38 AM » |
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thanks for your explanation  1eRRLL2e RRLL+a etc But i dont get this 1e and +a and that stuff.... is that counting? BTW i just searched around on the board and found a link that showed the upstroke downstroke technique in open rolls in text and animation. Text http://www.nextcraft.com/hot_topic_pdf_files/HotTopic_021901_Grip.pdfAnimation http://www.nextcraft.com/dflitems/Single_Stroke_00.movAnd i found out that im just using downstrokes in my open rolls !! Well i sure have a lot to learn i really must study the basics over again. Are one supposed to use upstroke downstroke in closed rolls too at slower tempos and bounce at higher tempos? Take notice that i use open rolls for single rolls and closed four double... i am a fast learner Thanks |
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DrumGun
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2003, 12:52 AM » |
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First, you (and everyone else) must understand the terminology and how it is used.
The "1e&a2e&a..." is counting. It is a way to sub-divide time within each larger note. When you count in a song yelling "one, two, three, FOUR!!!", you are counting "quarter notes", which means that in a measure of music (measures are the term for bite-sized pieces of time in music so that we don't just look at a song as a 4 minute pile of notes) there are 4 notes which, evenly spaced, keep you on track. If you break down those notes even farther by saying "one & Two & Three & Four &" you're now sub-dividing "8th" notes. Take it a step even farther and say "1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a" and you're dealing with "16th" notes, which means that in the same amount of time you were counting "one, two, three, FOUR!!!" you now recognize 16 little notes in there, all conspiring to keep you in time...
"Stroke" refers to each moment the stick strikes the drum (each "tap") - therefore a 5 stroke roll is in fact simply 5 notes on the drum. Usually they are 32nd notes, played by bouncing the stick to achieve 2 notes per hand when playing 16th notes ( 1e&a 2e&a ...) which would be RRLLR _when referring to ONLY a 5 stroke roll, there is an implied "gap" -or rest.
An Open Stroke roll is NOT - RLRLRLRLRLRLR... - that is called a single stroke roll, or simply "singles", meaning there is no double stroking involved. An Open Stroke roll is basically 32nd notes. Play 16th notes, then bounce the stick squeezing it just enough to control 2 notes for every stroke. - RRLLRRLLRRLLRRLL....
A Closed roll is also called a "buzz" roll. simply squeeze them thar sticks to create a multiple-note bounce for each stroke of the stick. There isn't an exact amount of notes you're going for per hand, you should simply be aiming for a consistant "buzzing" sound, thus the name of the rudiment.
Here's a breakdown - I'll try to type it as well as possible...
5 - RRLLr
7 - RRLLRRl
9 - RRLLRRLLr
11 - RRLLRRLLRRl
13 - RRLLRRLLRRLLr
15 - RRLLRRLLRRLLRRl
17 - RRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLr
see the pattern? A 32nd note roll (or 32nd notes) is simply an entire measure of 4/4 bouncing 2 notes per hand while playing 16th notes.
1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a ...
rr ll rr ll rr ll rr ll rr ll rr ll rr ll rr ll ...
For a "Closed Roll", you'd simply squeeze the stick more, crushing the notes.
I hope I've helped. For all the Drum Corps bashing that flies around, there's alot to be said for getting the building blocks perfect. Being a band geek certainly saved my ass. Ask Philips_hed how brutal I am in person on rudiments, He's Working on Flam patterns and he's quite funny when he sweats. Best of luck!
Kevin
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diddle
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I love to play chess and sip coffee!
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2003, 06:58 AM » |
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DrumGun, good explanation on counting. One correction, though, on rolls. A closed roll is not always played as a buzz roll. A buzz roll is where you press the sticks into the skin, as oppossed to playing "clean" sticking. ALso, ther term "open" and "closed" can be applied to any rudiment. It simply means slow and fast. The rudimental drummer is taught to play "open-closed-open" technique when practicing (or for drum try-outs, typically). This method enables the student to grasp the sticking at a very slow speed and slowly increasing the speed to max. Often, going through the transition from open to closed can be quite difficult, especially on certain rudiments. But if mastered correctly, these excercies will develop good technique and stick control.
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DrumGun
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2003, 09:20 AM » |
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Correct-a-mundo! Sorry, my Drum Corps came flying out with a bit too much speed. My instructor long abo at Madison Scouts used to yell "close that in" referring to crushing buzzes down. I guess I adopted it and haven't had to really use the terminology in a while. My bad, folks. Bad Kevin!
The open-closed-open does, in fact, refer to subtle changes in hand position when playing anything in a gradual slow-fast-slow manner, because you must squeeze the stick a bit more to control the sticks as speed increases.
Kevin
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Gadda
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2003, 09:35 AM » |
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Thank you all for your replies, they have been very helpful  Now i understand the counting thing.. ive been counting before too in my head but has never seen it written like that , but now i know what it means. About the single roll, to get it up at speed i guess one has to use the downstroke and upstroke (one wrist descending stroke and one wrist -rising stroke) at each hand. Right now im doing only wrist descending strokes(downstrokes) and can only get them to work at max 90 bpm 32th notes... 16th on each hand. I guess using that other technique enables faster playing. Thanks |
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Ratamatatt
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2003, 10:39 AM » |
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Actually i have 2 questions 1 what the difference between a open roll and a closed? 2 The five stroke roll, seven stroke etc up to seventeen should they be imediatly after each other... in other words... the five stroke roll should it be ^ ^ RRLLRLLRRL or is there a little pause between them ^ ^ RRLLR LLRRL Hope i dont bore you too much with my stupid questions Gadda, I see a lot of misinformation on this thread. I haven't read every post, but Paul L has it mostely right. If you notice by looking at the traditional rudiments, there are really only 3 true rudiments: single strokes, double strokes and flams. All of the traditional rudiments use one or more of these techniques. The term "open" generally means that you are playing at a tempo that's slow enough (not necessarily slow just slow enough) that each individual stroke can be distinctly heard. The term "closed" generally means that you can play a rudiment fast enough that each individual stroke cannot be heard. Frankly, I've never heard a flam rudiment played so fast that all of the strokes couldn't be clearly discerned, but that's the general idea. As for any of the double stroke rudiments, the term closed specifically means, or at least has come to mean, a "buzz" roll. Ratamatatt |
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philips_hed
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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2003, 02:25 AM » |
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DrumGun's rudiments: i have an easier time comprehending the WGI routines. After 4 years of watching Kevin, i am actually starting to learn.
Yes, philips_hed looks really funny trying to play real rudiments. Obviously, i hold no elusive key to practice ethic enlightenment. However, i do feel the lack of experience enough to tell any of you that may still think garage band kit practice is enough to give you a full toolbox, ... sorry, X gets the square.
i am assuming we have all heard it: Learning and practicing rudiments can ONLY help.
i am 33 years old and am just now learning things that i could have learned as a kid and therefore have a much more versitile arsenal of musical bling these days. If i had known of some sort of drummer's education as a kid, i might not (be bitter about being a lame drummer and) look so funny today. My advice: soak all the knowledge you can, folks.
i'm preaching to the choir here, right? ... "choir" being, the Drummer Cafe.
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Carn
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2003, 06:56 AM » |
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The term "open" generally means that you are playing at a tempo that's slow enough (not necessarily slow just slow enough) that each individual stroke can be distinctly heard.
The term "closed" generally means that you can play a rudiment fast enough that each individual stroke cannot be heard. Frankly, I've never heard a flam rudiment played so fast that all of the strokes couldn't be clearly discerned, but that's the general idea.
As for any of the double stroke rudiments, the term closed specifically means, or at least has come to mean, a "buzz" roll.
Ratamatatt
I would like to add that the goal oftenly is to make your rudiment sounds as open as possible, at the highest tempo a player can pull it off. Maybe the guy was reffering to the open-close routine...starting slow and building up, then slowing down again etc. |
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