DRUMMER CAFE

After reading your question the other day, I asked Eric - Cuban/Haitian drumming teacher - what Tumbao meant and learned that it's in EVERYTHING! I guess it's a part when you play in a drum group when almost any African, Cuban, Haitian, Jamaican rhythm is played. He showed me the basic hand pattern, and I remembered it from several of the songs we play. I wish I could share all the rhythms we do, but I'm just learning how to read music. Maybe by the end of the summer I could start sharing our music notation if any of you are interested. Eric has a library of music which took years to collect, and he's still collecting it!
Let me know.

Dave

All Alex is doing is keeping both parts of the Tumbao going.

For clarification, the traditional Tumbao is played on two drums by two players; one player on each drum ... conga and tumba.

Alex is keeping the conga part going while the tumba plays it's open tones, which makes the groove sound thicker. Most conga players who play both parts of the tumbao will leave out all simultaneous.

Also, a common variation is for the conga to play two slaps (AND 2) just before the two open tones on the tumba (AND 3).

The way I understand it, tumbao is not a rythym, but a place in a rythym.  Specifically the 4.  Tumbao can be played like windhorse says in guaguanco.  Notice the tone is on the 4.  If you play it in rumba columbia, which is 6/8, it's a different pattern, but with the tone still on the 4.  If you play tumbao for mambo, it's like the original question says, with tones on 4 and the "and" of 4.  From what I understand, there is also a slap on the 2 in most variations of tumbao. I hope this doesen't confuse you too much more than you were to start with

Who said anything about Rumba in 6/8?

Why don't you share about the contra conga parts; I believe I know what you are talking about.

I dont know where you get your info from zaregemca, but if you talk to the munequitos de matanzas. they play rumba columbia in 6/8.  Including short bell, and a 6/8 clave.  the palitos are in 4/4 along with the quinto ride at times. But the rythym itself is defiitely 6/8.

I don't have to talk with the Munequitos,my father is from Matanzas The 6/8 is a Yoruba Pattern with was created for Ritual Purpose together with the drums and the bell pattern which was brought it to Cuba and Brazil for the individuals which belong to that organization and those pattern have specific names which have never been Rumba.When I was in Cuba I never listen the Munequitos playing Yoruba Pattern and calling it Rumba,those pattern were played only for ritual purpose not for the people just to dance,for the same token there were Percussionists which dedicate themself to play only those pattern in they religious ceremonies.Neither the Congas was the original Drum to play those patterns.

Of course the Rumba have always been a 4/4 pattern.

To tell you the true, what is called 'Salsa' is compose of three patterns,Son,which is the mosly played by Bands,Guaracha which is less played becouse is faster and the Rumba with is also called Salsa Mayor,or Latin-Jazz.The Songo, which was developed in the 70's by Los Van Van Group, and is the way which the new generation of musicians have been playing that music  in Cuba,...Irakere Band,Los Van Van,La Ritmo Oriental,Los Reyes 73,Los Bocucos,NG la Banda,Grupo Impacto,etc.There is not Rumba in 3/4, that Time signature is used to play Walts,etc.

ok nevermind, I give in to the "Master Percussionist". Ill definitely never try to offer my advice again.  At least for a couple of minutes anyway.  My humble apologies.  (Even though I've got about 6 different recordings of the one I'm mentioning)  Is your father a drummer? Just being from Cuba doesn't necesarilly mean you know drumming, just as being american doesn't necesarily mean you know the blues. ( I don't know jack about the blues)   I'm sure you're right!  (Even though all the rumberos I know in Colorado disagree)Maybe we should make a topic on this one.   What is rumba?  
Thanks to drumlooney for sayin a rumba can be 3/4 and 4/4 at the same time.  That's what im trying to say.  In the rumba columbia I know,  the congas(tumba, low conga) are in a 6/8 pattern.  Then on top of that you can play any of the regular palitos from guaguanco.  the quinto then rides on the 4/4 groove with the palitos, making for a delicious blend.
  And to Sheldon, you can still tap 4 on a 6/8 rythym, in fact, I find most of the time I do

  0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - -
            or
bembe quinto  0=tone   x=slap -=space
  ox-ox-ox-ox-
 
 

Salsa is not a style per se ... but rather a generic term used to describe a kind of Afro-Cuban music (with vocals) that has been influenced by other Caribbean styles and Jazz. The word "salsa" was first came into use (musically) here in the US, New York City to be more specific, to describe a particular hybrid-Latin music style.

There are so many variations that to say that Salsa is one thing, you'd have to say the same thing about Rock and Jazz; the differences are wide and varied. I think the term "salsa" has become so generic ... you might as well group it with "latin".

Speaking of tumbao, what is the fastest any of you guys have had to play tumbao using two drums for extended periods of time with:  a conga and a tumba?  I've got a session in a couple of weeks where I'm going to be expected to hold a tumbao for at least 4 minutes at about quarter note = 140 BPM (time signature = 4/4; 2/3 son clave resolves every four beats; tumbao is played as 16th notes).  This is NOT a fast tempo BUT, I am trying to play tumbao using the following heel/tip pattern with the left hand (h=heel, t=tip):

| 1  e  &  u | 2  e  &  u| 3  e  &  u | 4  e  &  u |
  h   t        t    h  t           h   t        t    h  t

It's VERY difficult for me to hold steady for 4 minutes straight and I was practicing yesterday and I just don't think I'm going to have that ready in time!  I suck, I know....  

So, my major question is:  does anyone have any suggestions for 'modified' tumbao playing at fast tempos?  Is there a variation that may reproduce/simulate the heel/tip sound in the left hand?  If it helps any, the drum kit alternates between a songo and a straight 2 & 4 rock feel throughout the song.

I just need more practice, I think.  

Thanks, windhorse.  Actually, I'm not playing a mambo nor am I aware that that particular pattern is specific to mambo.  I believe it's simply one way of executing a tumbao and it's the way I've played tumbao for a long time and used in many different styles of music.

However, I've never had to play tumbao as 16th notes at BPM of 1/4 note = 140 with this pattern.  This is where I'm having problems using the hand pattern I described not being able to keep up.  I know there are hundreds of variations of tumbao and I've found some by googling, but I wanted to know what type of tumbao any Cafe members may have used if and when they had to play tumbao (or simulate tumbao) at burning tempos.  In fact, the patterns I'm finding generally don't consist of continuous 16th notes.  To compensate for the rapid tempos, of course it makes sense to drop a few notes but I'd like to keep continuous 16th notes if possible.  I've experimented with alternating single strokes leading with the left hand and doing the conga bops with the left hand as well, but I'm having trouble keeping that up as well.....   (I know, I suck.... )

Thanks again for your response!  

I've never seen or heard of the Son tumbao thought of as sixteenth-notes. Any notation I've seen it's always in eighth-notes, two-bar pattern ... just like the clave' pattern.

I just tested myself as well ... and could hold the Son tumbao at 180 bpm, if you are thinking of it in sixteenth-notes. This means the two-bar clave and conga pattern are actually played in one bar or four pulses at 180 bpm. I can hold it at that tempo, and stay fully relaxed, and have tracked in the studio fairly close to that tempo, playing the rocking motion that Scott notated. If I had to play any faster than that, I couldn't maintain it for a 3+ minute song, let alone stay relaxed. To my ears, even if I could play it faster, it sounds terrible. With all those notes in there, it just sounds muddy.

Many congueros would not play all those notes when playing fast tempos ... like 180+ bpm. Traditionally the last muffled stroke, played with the fingers (Scott marked it with a "t"), would be dropped.

A few suggestions: If it's too hard to play the three strokes in the left hand, rocking the "t h t" over the bar ... try playing the pattern using double strokes only ... like this:

The "r" which comes after the slap stroke "R" is a bounced note.

Another way to do this is to just leave out the Muffled stroke after the Slap and play this:

If it's really fast, play it like a disco conga pattern ....
This is Heel only on the downbeats, no fingers ... then the Slap and Open tones in the right hand.

Now ... this isn't even addressing the tumba part that occurs every other bar (assuming you think of this as a two-bar pattern). If you're not going to play that, then you should be able to get this groove up to a faster speed. I know I can play just the disco vibe much fast, and it doesn't get cluttered. But moving over the tumba for the & 3 every other bar is tough at blistering speeds. I have a little "sticking" change that I do to make it easier to move to the other drum at fast tempos ... so that I don't use the right hand on the conga just before I have to move to the tumba.

Hope this helps a little.

I agree with Bartman on playing a fast Tumbao. Leave the first toe out of the toe-heel-toe after the slap. You can go fast that way, and the heel-toe doubles will mark time very well.

I have been playing congas for 30+ years and have heard a few arguments about rythyms and the correct way. I think some guys get too caught up in that, worry so much about correctness they never develop their own style. Some things are pretty standard now, the books and teachers have defined the basic beats and techniques and these should be mastered till they are instinctive, can be played at speed. After that it is all about what you play.

And remember, self-proclaimed 'master drummers' are just that; self-proclaimed.