DRUMMER CAFE

     i will first suggest that you get a tutor, and fast! questions like these are very hard to answer since it's all about visualization. A lot of drummers i've seen who haven't been tutored, have acquired bad habits in there playing.
     If you don't get a tutor, i would recommend getting a video or a book with pictures in it to demonstrate the proper stroke. Steve Smiths 2 dvd set goes into great and unpresidented detail of matched and traditional grip.
     As for the drumset, like we've said many times before, it's all in preference and what YOU are used. If people were to suggest drum kit set ups that would help, they would only be giving you something that THEY'RE used to or some they know are used to.
     There are however, positionings of the snare that could help you. Many drummers will either tilt their snare to the right, which raises the left side and allows them to hit rim-shots easier. Others will tilt the snare foward (away form them) which has a similar affect.  Still, others keep their snare settings the same between matched and traditional (like me  ). For instance: Dave Weckl keeps his snare pretty much straight.
     I would also run a search on the site... i'm sure you can dig up only threads similar to this one.

1. Follow all the advice above, especially finding a tutor and working strictly on a snare and/or a pad. It's an entirely different work load on your left hand (if you're right-handed playing traditional). It's going to take some time to build coordination just playing on a single flat surface, much less a kit.

2. All the rules of match grip apply to traditional. The best way I can describe to start is to flip a bird with your left hand (assuming your right-handed -- things are switched if you're left-handed) and place the stick between the second and third joint of your index finger, letting it rest on top of the second joint of your ring finger. This will allow you to keep some space from the bottom of your thumb and your fulcrum. (I hope I described that properly). My general advice is to choke up on the stick a little more than you would using matched grip, but you'll just have to experiment to find optimum control and rebound.

3. Anticipate some blisters at the fulcrum (the pivot point on your index finger) and especially on top of your ring finger. In fact, until you learn how to control the stick, you're probably going to experience some bruising on your ring finger. Just be thankful you're not learning this with 3S marching sticks like I did!  

4. Practice rotating up and down very, very slowly, and at all five stick heights. Never let the bead of your stick rest on the head (rest position should be about a 1/4-inch above the head). As you build up speed, experiment by "opening" your grip a little. I think you'll find it's easier to build stamina this way. I certainly prefer trad. grip over match grip when my left hand is required to play busy!

Ryan, how can it be a sacrafice if thats what he wants to learn?
I just switched back to trad after almost 20 years of matched. I tend to use both depending on what I am trying to accomplish in the song, but I think there is nothing wrong with adding another tool to the toolbox IMHO.
-RHS

i'm just learning it, cause it looks sooo dang cool!  

besides, all my fav players use it: Vinnie C., Steve Smith, Thomas Lang, Matt Chamberlin, Stewart Copeland, as well as my veteran favs like Max Roach, Louis Bellison, Elvin Jones, Gene Krupa.  why cant i?  

Hey James, good to see your name again.

I would never argue anyone has to learn traditional grip, but if the guy's inspired to learn it, I think it can only benefit him to learn it. So many of the greatest drummers in the world play this way, and as someone who's played both ways for 20 years, I think there's a uniqueness  to it -- maybe the way the brain processes motor skills, I'm not suure. While I'm sure I could learn how to swing playing matched grip, I'm not totally confident I'd be able to identify with a lot of the older drummers if I didn't learn it playing traditional. When my left hand is turned over in matched, I simply don't think the same way I do when it's in traditional position.

Maybe I've been unduly influenced by so many images from the 40s and 50s of hip black drummers in smoky Manhattan jazz clubs. I won't deny the likely cultural influence. But I would never discourage anyone who wants to learn and experiment with the tradition of drumming. There's something magical about revisiting old things, some seemingly archaic and lacking purpose on the surface.

Being a musician isn't always about taking a linear path to technical excellence. Sometimes it's about exploring, regardless of the immediate and visible benefits. If he's inspired to learn traditional, there may be more for him to gain than a new technique.

First off James...It's good to see you posting again...I didn't see anything from you for a while and was wondering where you were....with that said...
I think you missed my point ( or perhaps I need to word my response better). I was commenting that Ryan felt it was a waste of time. Well guess what? It's not his time so I don't think that comment was warrented. I also don't want to get into a trad vs. Matched war ( Lord knows there are enough of those available on the web and this forum  ), but I know from MY experience, that when I play more jazz type stuff...it feels more comfortable for me playing trad than matched, thus my comment about another tool in the toolbox because that exactly how I view it.
I also don't recall anything in foreversavedkid's post about not practicing something else because he was working on switching his grip. Ryan AND yourself both made the assumption he was giving something up in order to do this.
I know nothing of foreversavedkid's life, but perhaps he has the time to do it. When I was in highschool I would spend 4 or 5 hours a day practicing. I could easily accomplish everything you listed and then some.
I was going on what I read in the original post, not assuming I knew more about the subject than was presented at the onset, a mistake I feel you AND Ryan both made.
You also said " I just don't see the justification for spending the time on it ". Well, just because you don't understand, doesn't make it wrong. IMHO
He was looking for advice about the technique, not opinions as to wether or not we felt he was wasting time or not. I just thought Ryans comment was not warrented so I replied in FSK's defense.
As for the screwdriver analogy, I buy the other set  because A) I can, and B) the rubber gripped ones as apposed to the plastic gripped ones work better in the rain...they don't slip.   YMMV
-RHS

...and the reason you can't utilize forearm pronation with both the left and right hands when playing matched grip is...?

I haven't seen the Chapin video, but I did just recently check out some of Dom Famularo's videos on the Vic Firth web site, including one featuring Jim Chapin.  Dom asked Jim to demonstrate the Moeller technique, and Jim did...first with the traditional left hand grip, then using the "matched" grip technique - in his left hand.  Played the same thing with either grip.  He sounded great in both instances.

As an occupational therapist I have to question the use of the word pronation here. Pronating your forearm is the turning of your hand from palm up to palm down. This is done at the forearm between the 2 bones of the forearm. There is no pronation of the wrist unless you are misidentifying the wrist for the forearm. The wrist is that part of your arm, right before your hand, that has all those little bones that get broken in bar fights. It allows your hand to move in a sideways motion, put your arm flat on the table and move your thumb sideways toward yout wrist while your forearm stays still and then move it the other way pinky toward wrist. It also allows us to move are hand  up and down, waving your hand at the wrist. If your hand has the back facing upwards you are in pronation. You've pronated you forearm. The motion of pronation is no longer taking place.
You are pronating when using traditional grip bringing the stick in an arc down to the drumhead. You are in pronation (but not using the motion of pronation) when playing in matched grip and using that waving at the wrist motion, and some fingers, etc.
I hope that makes sense. I've got a book about grip that has nice anatomical drawings and descriptions called
Understanding Drum Techniques by David Hughlett
It really breaks down all the parts of your grip.
I would be interested in what the rest of you guys think of it. I ordered mine through Interstate Music.

I don't think your stick cares how you hold it.  If you can hit the drumhead when you want and with the force and finesse you want, what difference does the grip make?  The reason people think one grip is better than the other is because they are more proficient with one.  I use both grips because the trad grip looks cooler on some songs.  Using both grips allows me rest different parts of my hand while playing.  

   That's exactly when & why I also switch to trad. grip in different situations. I find it easier to play quieter and faster with traditional grip with jazz grooves.
   
    I disagree with what someone said about having to spend as much time on a new grip as you did with the old one. I haven't spent even close to the same amount of time on both grips (I almost always use matched). I've been working on a snare piece for the last four months (just for fun...I'm such a geek ) and I've almost always practiced it using matched grip but my teacher once commented on how well I could play it using trad. with almost no practice with the grip. If someone were to surprise me one day and show up on my doorstep and told me to prove to them I could play equally well with both grips, I would most definately be able to prove it to them....

   I don't know man. I guess it's easier to learn another grip once becoming proficient with another. Or maybe Im just god's gift....(hehe)

   I went to a music school at a university for one semester and my teacher was the most nutso snare drummer I have ever seen (and also by far the best teacher I've ever had). He played traditional grip and I kinda would watch him when he was demonstrating stuff (actually I was probably gawking more than I was watching). It really helped just to be able to watch someone who was that good and could play using that grip with so much confidence and knowledge.

   What I mean is that it's not all about the muscles being taught to play in a completely new way, it's also about learning how to play the stroke (I guess like a motor skills brain thingy). By becoming proficient in one grip, one can learn from the mistakes made while learning their first grip, and applying what they learned to their new grip can make things go along much more smoothly. I don't think I've really properly explained myself but I hope you'll kinda understand my gibberish.
Hippie out...

PS. I'm definitely not god's gift . I wish there was a teacher within even a 1 hour drive though so I could at least find out if I'm any good or not....or not....or not...or not