I'd say the reason many of the truly great jazz drummers didn't play rock'n'roll was because it didn't exist.
Most of the jazz greats came up before rock'n'roll, even if their carreers coincided with it. Jazz was pop music, just as rock'n'roll became pop music. It had sociological ties to the population. It was the music of those people at that time. That's why much of the greatest jazz is older. It was the voice of the people, which it no longer is. Jazz is now essentially repertory music, with a few exceptions. It no longer represents a large enough piece of the population to have the immediate social relevance that it once had.

all these cds n stuff...

YOU SHOULD GO OUT AND WATCH JAZZ ALL DAY LONG!

And the first thing in the morning, put on a jazz cd while eating breakfast. So you can do other things while listening to jazz, allowing it to come naturally... man i'm tired. =)

As a bass player, which I assume you are,  you obviously have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to jazz drums as neither would I assume to discuss the ins and outs of playing bass with you or anyone else.
Do I also have no idea about piano, guitar, saxophone etc. and the ability of each to communicate in the group?
You are, of course, more than welcome to feel that I am full of @$%#. However, the reason I say what I say is a result of my own experiences in learning to play this music AND what I've gleaned from talking to other people (including drummers) about this music. And it is entirely possible that I am looking at this from a perspective that is removed from what I did as a beginner. All I know is that my early approach, which focused on technical aspects like chord/scale, blanket scales etc. just got me to a point where I sounded like I could play, but I couldn't really play. So I tend to be a little down on approaches that focus on things that sound like "move your ride pattern around the kit".
But when I talk to players like Yoron Israel or Lewis Nash or Leroy Williams or Terry Clarke and Ian Froman  or a buncha other guys (or gals like Sylvia Cuenca), they don't talk about "moving patterns around" they talk about actually listening to the music and playing sounds they hear in their head on their kit. And the cats I enjoy playing with the most are the ones who are playing with ME, not with some group of patterns they've worked out. So, even given the fact that duggy will be playing a kit and not bongoes, I think he would be better off (given a rudimentary technical ability, after all he ain't new to drums, just to jazz, right?) listening to records to hear the approach to time feel, balance, how to accompany, locking the quarter note etc., than taking off Philly Joe's ride pattern to BYE BYE BLACKBIRD and showing up at a jam session.
You, of course, may feel otherwise.

So, who have you played with for forty years?

All right everyone.. Easy does it.  This is a great thread, lets not turn it into a b*tch session.  Everyone makes valid points and I am enjoying the different viewpoints from different individuals with different backgrounds.  As a student of jazz myself I like the creative side of the music where you get to interject your feelings and creativity.  Elvin Jones once said that he looked at his drum set and imagined each peace was a different color and he played it to how the colors best blended.  Elvin went on to say that he could hear the colors.  I take this as the mans creative approach to the music.  

dw

Hey, this site's for drummers...no musicians aloud..._{just kidding}

You guys have been getting way to deep with this, with the colors and the extensions of the body. Ughhh. I have been studying for the past five years with one of the greatest jazz drummers of all time who nobody here has mentioned, Joe Morello. He never talks this talk. He teaches technique first. Then he teaches you how to swing (i.e. triplet swing on the ride/ 2&4 on the HH). Of course we work of several books that expands greatly on this. Some of us can swing, some can't. He said I am one of the few rock drummers he has heard that can cross-over to swing. Now the question-answer improve stuff. That is just listening to what is going on around you like every other style of music. Of course with jazz there is quite a bit more than with pop and rock. But music is music. A head, a solo, a head, a solo, a solo. Whatever. Why make is so deep. Listening is the key. Experience of doing is the other key.

Tony, you seem to responding to something other than the idea I was trying to convey.

Despite quality (or lack thereof), Christina Arugula and Brittany Spears are more socially relevant than any jazz artists. That doesn't mean there's no good jazz or that it is completely irrelevant. It's just overshadowed to an enormous extent. It doesn't speak to a majority. It doesn't even speak to a majority of the minority.

I didn't learn this from a textbook; I learned from my own senses.

Louis Armstrong was a pop artist. Same can be said for Ellington and Basie. Can't say that for Henry Threadgil, no matter how good he is. You could say it for Kenny G., but I wouldn't call his music jazz.

I doubt if Elvin would disagree
Well that's kinda my point. I've talked with him and he didn't talk about "jazz ride patterns", you don't seem to have talked to him yet you seem to imply you know where he stands. Well, OK, I guess. I haven't met you so I have no way of assessing how acute your powers of perception are. You may well indeed be able to postulate how any number of people you've never actually spoken to feel on any number of issues. I can't really do that, so I'll just have to stick with what they've actually told me.

I guess the other thing is the identification of "pulse" and "ride". Yes, I remember duggy, he's the guy that plays drums already and is interested in learning how to play jazz. Which, to me as a bassist who obviously doesn't know what I am talking about, has more to do with learning to apply the technical vocabulary one already possesses with intent and meaning. Which means hearing with clarity and playing what you hear. To apply it to bass, which as a bassist I do know a lot about, you get folks who have played electric bass in rock/folk/pop/bluegrass(well, those guys play upright)/Bulgarian thrash polka for x number of years who (for some unknown reason) want to play jazz. And the first thing they get told is "Go take off some walking bass lines". Which is where I started. Unfortunately, you get to a place where it only sounds like you can play, you are not really doing anything but pushing buttons. Now, yes, I came to my current teacher after having played for 20+ years (10 or those in NYC), but he has students that have just picked up the instrument. And his approach, which I am pushing because it has worked for me, is to start working on getting your ear in shape, transcribing - not to get notes or patterns, but to work on what improvising jazz really is ie conceptualizing a line in your head as a response to the musical environment you are in and getting that line out into the air by playing it on your instrument. He develops technique as a means to get your ear around deeper harmony and rhythm.

Am I trying to say you're wrong? No, not really. What I am saying is that there is a way to get to this music at a deeper level, that you can start doing it right from the start and save yourself a lot of grief and beating of your head against a brick wall, later.
All it is is INFORMATION and duggy can say "man that's too much work" or " Interesting approach let me find out more".

But he can't if the INFORMATION isn't presented in the first place. Right?

What exactly is it you're hoping to get out of this exchange? What precisely is it about the INFORMATION I've presented that has climbed up your a**?

Bishop Berkley? Busby Berkley?

Is my mic not on? Cause I'm asking some specific questions that you aren't answering. Feel free to do so privately, if you don't wish to publicly.

I don't think there's any disagreement as to where we wanna end up, I just think that we have a different set of directions. And I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what, in my set of directions, makes you think I "obviously don't know what (I) am talking about"?

Morello made an enormous impact on the jazz world and dropped drummers' jaws all over the world.  You'll excuse me for preaching to the choir but what he did in Take Five and, to me, even moreso in the Time Further Out recording was and still is a major statement in jazz drums.  There were those who couldn't fathom his mastery of odd signatures and went so far as to accuse him of over overdubbing his solos in 5/4 over a hihat track.   His solo in Far More Drums is a masterpiece.
Joe had enormous chops but his musicality came first.

What a great experience, Plowboy - I'm sure you know how fortunate you are.


John