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Author Topic: Double stroke roll  (Read 1044 times)
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TMe
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« on: May 13, 2002, 10:36 AM »

Can anyone give me advice for developing a better double stroke roll?  I use the mama papa drill (accent on the second syllables) and that has given me a lot of control at lower tempos, but hasn't helped at all with higher tempos.  I can get the speed, but the roll is an uneven mess.
I play Rock, and I've always used single strokes, so I need to start right at the beginning with the double stroke roll.  Any advice about grip, arm positioning, etc. would be appreciated.
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sidereal
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2002, 11:27 AM »

Have you be taught French grip at all? You'll need to start getting some strength going in your fulcrum between the first break in your index finger and your thumb (not to mention where the natural fulcrum occurs on the stick) and get the feel of manipulaing the sticks with your fingers. That's the best way to gain control and speed. You should really be learning it with a teacher, but briefly: Keep your arms close to your body and the flat of your hands pretty much perpendicular to the snare. Then it's all about the fulcrum, your fingers, and gaining a feel for the natural bounce.
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Peter Jeffery
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2002, 10:34 PM »

TMe  -First of all, you'd be wise to spend even just one hour with a professional instructor.  Technique is #1 if you want to develop any stroke to the fullness of your potential.

Off the record -what worked in making my doubles what they are (although I'll never stop trying to improve them further) was taking it a step further....I spent months practicing triplets....LLL RRR LLL RRR.   This is a simple answer and again technique has to be #1, but doing this REALLY helped to make my double strokes burn.  

The advantage, I believe, was that the triplets help to force a drummer to control each stroke.   With doubles, I've seen many drummers letting the second stroke merely bounce from the first.  This leads to a sloppy sounding roll.   That's not to say that it's NOT a bounce....it IS.   But it's a controlled bounce!   The second stroke is aided by your fingers, while the primary first stroke has a little more involvement with the wrist (and fingers).  

Check your doubles on a floor tom -you should be able to maintain an even stroke on this larger, looser surface.   If you were merely depending on a bounce, you'll notice that on this surface (floor tom) that your double stroke becomes uneven and sloppier than on a tightly tuned snare drum or pad.

Although I didn't practice this particular exercise much -I have a friend, a great drummer from Toronto, who swore by it.  To overcome the tendency to have a weak second stroke, he often practiced accenting that note  (capitol letters as accents):       rR lL rR lL

Take it a step even past the triplets and practice 'Stone Killers.'    You can find them in Joe Morello's book, 'Master Studies' and elsewhere.  

To get a great double stroke, you'll need to go past merely practicing doubles.    Use a metronome and record your progress.   Remember the key is to always relax!  

Mix your routine by playing bars of mixed rudiments:  singles; doubles; paradiddles (paradiddles incorporate a double in each); triplets; quads,  etc......      

RLRL RLRL RLRL RLRL   RRLL RRLL RRLL RRLL

RLRR LRLL RLRR LRLL   LLRR LLRR LLRR LLRR
RLLR LRRL RLLR LRRL   RRLL RRLL LLRR LLRR

LLLL RRRR LLLL RRRR   LLRR LLRR LLRR LLRR
LLLR RRRL LLLR RRRL   RRLL RRLL RRLL RRLL

RRR   LLL  RRR    LLL    LLL   RRR   LLL   RRR
RLR   LLL   RLR    LLL    LRL   RRR  LRL   RRR

and on, and on, and on.....

Once your doubles are really starting to happen for you,  make sure to run through your routines with accents. Ex;  

RRLL RRLL rRlL  rRlL
RRLL RRLL RrLl  RrLl

...and accent the doubles or singles within different paradiddles or other rudiments:

RllR   lRRl   RllR  lRRl
LrrL  rLLr   LrrL  rLLr

Finally, practice doubles around the kit.  A basic beginning idea could be to keep your right hand on the floor tom (if you play a right handed kit, that is)  and alternate your left hand between the snare drum- first tom- snare drum- closed hi-hat.   Then incorporate the bass drum.   Again, use this basic double pattern as a starting point;  

RRLL RRLL RRLL RRLL  

Once you get the hang of it and feel your strokes are even, the possibilities are endless.   Best of all, patterns and accenting those patterns around the kit makes learning FUN!   Cool
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Peter Jeffery
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2002, 05:25 AM »

Great explanation PJ.

Doesn't anyone start out with old Haskall Harr anymore?

Or does he suk now?

A teacher is the way to go.  Especially when you first start.

I also had some of Paul Capozzi's Around the Drumset series books where one would have to play doubles duh, around the drumset.  Nice way to learn how to play doubles in time with grooves and such.
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TMe
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2002, 11:20 AM »

Thanks for the tips!

When I tried playing the double stroke as pairs of finger strokes, there was an immediate improvement.  That's the way I was playing the Stone Killers, but I always thought that was just to develop single strokes and that the double stroke used a passive rebound. Now I get it.

At very high tempos (for me) the passive rebound is all I can get, and the french grip does work much better for that.

So when I want that quick blur, I'll use the French grip and when I want an articulated sound I'll use finger strokes.

Bob IS your uncle.

As for instructors, I haven't been able to find one who has a really high level of stick control.  There's all kinds of instructors in this town (Toronto) who are great kit players, but I haven't met one who spends a lot of time on rudimental drumming or the like.
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Peter Jeffery
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2002, 04:54 PM »

TMe -You are living in a town with an instructor available to you who can make you into the best drummer you could possibly be if you're a serious student.  

I studied with a number of great teachers in Toronto.  
One of those teachers in particular was an absolute stand-out.  His name is RICHARD GREENSPOON.  He's the guy who can change your playing like probably few others ever can or will.   He'll help you with absolutely anything.  The guy is gifted.  I could sit and watch him play on his own for hours and never get bored.   He'll have you playing stuff that you never imagined you could.    Not to brag the guy up too much...but in this case it's warranted.    I studied with Rich for two years and wish it was a whole lot more.

I would only direct a student elsewhere if they were looking to learn big rock fills and double bass drum stuff....Rich is a more refined jazzy/ funky type player.  He's got chops galore....and knows precisely when to NOT use them.   Anybody with serious chops but who plays with huge feel first and foremost is what I look for in a teacher.....providing they can also TEACH!   There's big chops guys teaching in Toronto -Rick Gratton is one of them.   I don't think he even compares with Richard.  

Rich is currently teaching at Soul Drums on Yonge Street...I haven't been there but I believe it's north of Sheppard.....south of Just Drums.    If you're serious about a teacher -there's the guy.    Next time I'm playing in Toronto I'll be knocking down his door for a few lessons.

http://www.souldrums.com/
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Peter Jeffery
TMe
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2002, 12:02 PM »

Peter, thanks for the info. Soul Drums is quite a hike from the Danforth (I'm a TTC guy), but it sounds worth the commute.  I'm pretty much self taught, so I certainly could use some help.
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Carn
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2002, 02:50 PM »

doing paradiddle combinations on the drums with toms and snare is a good way as well......and as mentioned, if you can do a decent roll on the floor tom, you are going to good way!
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Adam Blevins
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2002, 12:09 PM »

The way I learned dexterity n double stroke rolls is through a marching band exercise commonly called "doubles".  It's basically one-e-a-two-and-a-e-&-4-& reapeted over and over.  There are other variations, but that's basically it.  Also, that patern is played with a single hand (rr--rr--rr--rr--r--r--)then the other hand.  I hope this all makes sense...I'm used to explaining this stuff when I can scribble sheet music down on a piece of paper...
--adam--
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