jazz_drummer2003
Copper Member
Offline
Posts: 67
|
 |
« on: October 07, 2003, 01:27 PM » |
|
i was just listening to "pennies from heaven" off the dave brubeck quartet at carnegie hall cd and absolutely love the sound of his drums. you can really here them in the trading fours part near the end of the song. anybody know what he uses here (drums/skins) and/or how to get that sound out of a drum kit?  ?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
diddle
supporter
Gold Member
Online
Posts: 671
I love to play chess and sip coffee!
|
 |
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2003, 07:01 PM » |
|
I love Joe Morello's sound. To get that "jazzy sound" from your drumkit, try using single-ply heads, tuned tight, with top & bottom heads tuned to same pitch.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3487
|
 |
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2003, 07:45 PM » |
|
No cite, but I remember reading some article in which the author's friend (with perfect pitch) deduced that Morello's snare was tuned to an E* on top and an F on bottom. IIRCFTDC (If I recall correctly from the Drummer Cafe  ), the jazzy sound evolved from drummers with small drums (for portability) who didn't wish to change their heads often enough (for financial reasons?) and cranked them to compensate for their wear. A tradition was born. However, I wouldn't think that Morello's drums were/are tensioned that tightly; I could be wrong. That said, you can play jazz on cardboard boxes (or, at least, drums that sound that way) if you please. It's all in the meter and feel, as far as I'm concerned, even though the appropriate drum is nice. *At least, as close as a drum can get to E (or F).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
jokerjkny
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3097
|
 |
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2003, 10:20 PM » |
|
IMHO, a set of Aquarian Jack DeJohnette heads rock for all things jazz. Aquarian's Modern Vintage are incredible, too. get 'em all at www.interstatemusic.com
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
...this aint no time fo' jibba jabba!
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2003, 08:16 AM » |
|
Joe uses single-ply Ambassadors - coated on the top, clear on the bottom. He does not tune to any specific notes on the snare or the other drums. He does tune the drums fairly tight. The batter heads are tuned slightly higher in pitch than the resonant heads. The batter bd head has a felt strip running up-and-down and 3" in on the left side. Joe has a mole-skin patch on the batter bd head where the beater hits the head. He tunes the snare as follows. The reso. head is tuned tighter than the batter head. They are tuned in the same interval as the first two notes of "Here Comes the Bride".
Hope this helps. I have been studying with Joe for five years and have seen him play live a number times. His drums always sound like thunder (they really remind me of John Bonham's drum sound). He is the best advertisement for DW drums I have seen.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
SteamRhino
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2003, 10:28 AM » |
|
There's a dramatic difference between Joe's studio sound and live sound. On the Carnegie Hall recording, the miking was ambient and took full advantage of the accoustics of the hardboards on that big open stage. I think that recording came closest to any he's done to capture his REAL sound which is huge and technical at the same time. I especially like the Bohnam reference. Makes sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
paul
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 1364
|
 |
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2003, 03:28 PM » |
|
Something else should be noted here. Morello was not playing a "bebop" set on those recordings with Brubeck. He had a 14x22, 9x13, 16x16 setup, and a wooden mallet on the bass drum pedal.
I still think "Far More Drums", from the "Time Further Out" album, is one of the top 3 drum solos ever recorded.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely preferable to the presence of those who think they've found it. - Terry Pratchett My drum page
|
|
|
|
hippie
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2003, 03:32 AM » |
|
I still think "Far More Drums", from the "Time Further Out" album, is one of the top 3 drum solos ever recorded.
I'll second that. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
diddle
supporter
Gold Member
Online
Posts: 671
I love to play chess and sip coffee!
|
 |
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2003, 10:44 AM » |
|
Plowboy, That's really cool that you take lessons from Joe. I consider him a benchmark for jazz drumming. I have pictures of him hanging in my drum room. Isn't he about 82 now? I'd love to hear more about Joe and your experiences learning from him.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
hippie
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2003, 05:50 PM » |
|
Plowboy, That's really cool that you take lessons from Joe. I consider him a benchmark for jazz drumming. I have pictures of him hanging in my drum room. Isn't he about 82 now? I'd love to hear more about Joe and your experiences learning from him.
I'll second that. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3487
|
 |
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2003, 06:36 PM » |
|
Third. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
SteamRhino
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2003, 04:50 AM » |
|
werd 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chris
supporter
Gold Member
Offline
Posts: 541
\o/
|
 |
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2003, 05:19 AM » |
|
I have been studying with Joe for five years
respect.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I hit things.
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2003, 08:39 AM » |
|
Joe just turned 73 in July. It's funny about Joe not using the "bebop" kit. He doesn't believe in using a floor tom for a kick drum as he would put it. I agree about the drum sound on the Carnegie Hall recordings. They are killer. BTW, Joe had the flu during those shows. Studying with Joe is like studying with your great uncle. He is a kind soul, an absolute gentleman and one of the most humble people you will ever meet. He knows as much about drum gear and construction as he does about playing. He also knows about modern day drummers. The two (out of the many) things I've learned from Joe is technique and playing musically. He stripped down my technique and we started essentially from scratch. Joe also emphasises playing musically in all types of situations whether it is rock, jazz, classical etc. Musicalilty always superceeds chops which many of us forget. Joe also believes that speed is not essential, consistancy in your playing is much more important. The speed will always develop through practice. He would rather see you play evenly at slower tempos than play sloppily at faster tempos. His imagination with exercises is endless, especially with pages 5, 6 and 7 of Stick Control. I'm on my second copy of this book because the first copy fell apart. I have been exposed to so much, but there is so much more to learn. Someone should write a biography on Joe because of his impact on the drumming community. Joe is currently working on another book and video. His web address www.joemorello.net
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
sapazi
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2003, 10:32 AM » |
|
2003 - 1929 = 74 ... 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2003, 12:59 PM » |
|
Pardon me for the mistake. I stand corrected. Guess I need a new calculator....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3487
|
 |
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2003, 02:36 PM » |
|
2003 - 1929 = 74 ... Pardon me for the mistake. I stand corrected. Guess I need a new calculator....
Well, if you didn't spend time on such piddling matters as his tuning, the fact that he's opposed to 'bebop'-style drumkits, his preference for control over speed, his imagination with excercises (as well as his versatility), you would have gotten that one right!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2003, 05:15 AM » |
|
Oh, there's one in every crowd...LOL..
BTW, I saw Joe last night for a lesson and he informed me that he will be appearing at Shanghai Jazz in Madison, N.J. on November 5th. There are two shows - 7pm-8pm and 9pm-10pm. If anyone here if is from the N.Y./N.J./P.A. area make the trip to see him. It is well worth the effort.
The band smokes and he has a wicked sense of humor. Joe likes to talk in between songs. The last time my wife and I saw his quartet he had Buddy's old piano player playing with him.
BTW, DW just sent him a new kit in a silver sparkle broken glass wrap. The drums are absolutely gorgeous. They twinkle (yes like little stars in the night) under the lights.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JeepnDrummer
supporter
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 1489
Ding, fries are done!
|
 |
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2003, 10:29 PM » |
|
You did suggest that he visit this site, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3487
|
 |
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2003, 12:14 AM » |
|
I'd also like to add that I like the way he plays 4/4 with brushes; rather than play a pattern such as this:
Left hand: whhhhiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssshh
Right hand: PAT pat pat PAT pat pat PAT pat pat PAT pat pat
he seems to go:
Left hand: whiiishh whiiiiishh whiiiiishh whiiiiishh whiiiiishh
Right hand: pat PAT pat PAT pat PAT pat PAT
I know this is gratuitous use of onomatopoeia; the second example is easily audible in "Strange Meadow Lark" by Dave Brubeck.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2003, 06:44 AM » |
|
Yes I did... LOL = Laugh out loud. I was laughing at myself for making the mistake. I know that Joe turned 74 on July 17th. A big Duh for me.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
blue-eyed soul man
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2003, 09:37 PM » |
|
shows some nice touch (with that close miking) on "kathy's waltz"
and the brief solo (where he plays the melody line on the toms) on "everybody's jumpin'"
always appreciated brubeck and morello (and the overall feel of, not only the album, but of that time. that period. where, it seemed like the music mattered. and every-little-thing wasn't contrived or following a "formula").
cheers to those guys, AND the guys at columbia records. (great re-issue, with the expanded notes).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2003, 06:47 AM » |
|
Joe told there was a big battle between Brubeck and Columbia when Take 5 was recorded because the head of Columbia (his name excapes me) felt the tune was not commercial enough for the listening audience, especially since the song was in 5/4. I guess he was proven wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
blue-eyed soul man
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2003, 12:52 PM » |
|
goddard lieberson. (in the notes, brubeck says the album was already out a year before lieberson decided to release it to radio, and for jukebox play).
i won't re-cap the notes here (anybody interested can read them), but i admire the project, and how they jumped in and did something creatively different (and did it well).
tell mr. morello we said "hey".
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
blue-eyed soul man
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2003, 01:20 PM » |
|
i think the album is interesting on two fronts:
1: it's not surprising that we find ourselves talking about it on a drum forum (the album is a study in rhythmic changes) and
2: it's a good story of artistic sensibilities (and brubeck not compromising what he wants to do musically) even though he knew going in that the project wasn't "commercial", or not what the corporate types wanted or expected.
sometimes music of integrity can be commercially successful.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
nudrum
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 1470
A man and his cymbalta
|
 |
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2003, 01:36 PM » |
|
I played to Time Out, on LP, when I first started to get interested in jazz. I have always loved that album. All the songs are either in an "odd" time signature or switch between time signatures. It probably helped my development alot. I found myself playing "Take Five", the LP, to one of my students. He thought it was cool.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Enjoying a resurgence in jazz gigs.
|
|
|
drumz1
Silver Member
Online
Posts: 360
Trust me, I'm a drummer.
|
 |
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2003, 05:25 PM » |
|
Musicalilty always superceeds chops which many of us forget.
You sure got that right, Plowboy. I know LOTS of drummers who have incredible chops, and still can't cop a groove. They are so busy being full of themselves and trying to impress the audience that they forget everything else. Too bad that "playing for yourself" is more important to them than "playing for the song". The exceptions to the rule are performers such as Rich, Bellson, Weckl, Gadd, Colaiuta, and a few others. Yes, they had chops from hell, but they always played with a musical concept first and foremost. Regards, drumz1
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.
|
|
|
|
random
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2003, 08:54 PM » |
|
good use joe!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
KourousX
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2003, 04:38 PM » |
|
Hello Jazz Drummer,
As you can see from the album cover, Joe was using white coated heads on a Ludwig kit that was not "bebop-sized".
Two very important factors in the sound you hear on "Pennies":
1. The acoustics of Carnegie Hall. I saw Brubeck there 10 years ago. Drummer Randy Jones was unmiked -- on a soft ballad, I could hear every single detail of his brush swirls from THE VERY LAST ROW, hundreds of feet away from and above the stage. Drums sound thunderous in C. Hall.
2. The digital remastering. Nowadays, with digital mixing, you can change EVERYTHING about every instrument, including the timbre of the drums and the "virtual room" they were playing in.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
bongo
supporter
Gold Member
Offline
Posts: 825
Designated Driver
|
 |
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2003, 08:35 PM » |
|
I saw Joe do a clinic when I was 14 back in the 60's. He believed in wide open tuning (yeah like Bonham) and said things like 'Get that pillow out of your bass drum!'
He was incredible and said 'ANYBODY can do stuff like this' and proceded to chop it up like Buddy. Well I certainly couldn't chop it up like that, but the point was is it's more cool to play interesting melodies, to make a musical statement.
Another that stuck with me was how he made fun of guys with lots of cymbals, called them 'Cymbal Simons'.
Joe is something else!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2003, 12:58 PM » |
|
Bongo that is funny about the Cymbal Simons. That is Joe's sense of humor. His attitude about cymbals is, you only have two arms.
Joe's "anybody can do stuff like this" is a perfect example of the positive approach he has with his students and who can chop it up like Joe? Joe doesn't want his students to play like he does. He gives you the tools and wants you to be yourself behind the kit and make that musical statement that you mention.
Blue-eyed soul man, think about how difficult it is today to challenge the record company over musical intergity (as if the labels have any).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3487
|
 |
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2003, 01:10 PM » |
|
Plowboy—I was wondering if you know this; did Mr. Morello use calf heads when he recorded Take Five? I ask because weren't Mylar heads introduced shortly before?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2003, 07:03 AM » |
|
Joe, I honestly have no idea. Joe has never mentioned using calf heads in all of the discussions we have had about drum gear.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|