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Author Topic: Double stroke hand technique (and the buzz roll)  (Read 486 times)
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BBJones
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« on: October 29, 2003, 10:10 AM »

Just curious what you all have to say about this...

My teacher is showing me 3 distinct stages of double stroke rolls hand/grip technique when moving from slow to fast.

Start slow:
- Mostly wrist, fairly snug finger control

Hit medium speed:
- move to use more finger than wrist

Hit fast speed:
- move to use all rebound, no finger control

So you can work in from slow to fast changing between the 3 techniques.  The exercise is not about trying to play fast, but about controlling the transitions between the 3 hand techniques.

What I'm really curious about is how many of you play a fast double stroke roll where you DON'T use any fingers and totally rely on the stick rebound?  For me, I've never felt comfortable (becuase I never practiced it Tongue) just letting the stick fall and rebound without my fingers having something to do with it.

This leads into doing a buzz roll.  The only way I can do a decent buzz roll is to use only the stick bounce/rebound.  I can't put my back fingers into it becuase they interfere of course with the buzz.  So this is the same concept as above with the double strokes.

Any comments?  Thanks! Smiley
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Jon E
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2003, 10:26 AM »

To my students (and others) I call it "playing through the break".  "The Break" being that speed/tempo when you stop using only wrist (be it for rolls or other rudiments/phrases), and allowing bounce.  

I guess the next step--from bounce to ONLY bounce is up for discussion.

I say, anything you can play with wrist, play it that way.

If you to have to play ONE note, you likely wouldn't just throw your stick at it and let it rebound willy-nilly.  You'd play that note with full control of the stick.  Why shouldn't you use the same control when playing many notes IF POSSIBLE.

There may be bits of variation depending on the actual music being performed, but....I think you see what I'm getting at.

The same (perhaps even more so) goes with feet control!
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BBJones
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2003, 10:38 AM »

Yeah I guess the way I think of it is I always want to be controlling the stick and the rebound (apart from a buzz roll).  If my doubles aren't fast enough that I have to rely on pulling my fingers away and using only the rebound... then I say my fingers/wrists aren't fast enough.  I guess it seems a bit like cheating your technique.

Can you explain a bit more on how you relate this to the feet?  You don't have the same options for control with your feet as you do with your hands (no fingers forcing a rebound), so how do you see the physical hand/grip technique issues applying to your feet?
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felix
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2003, 10:54 AM »

It sounds like you are working on the "multiple bounce" (slang is buzz roll, not to be confused with press roll) which is an entirely different technique than the double stroke roll.  Or are you working on both?  Or are you just closing your dbl stroke with a multiple bounce or are you closing with a press?  Or are you keeping your dbl clean on the close? You need to figure it out because all these options are available to you.  But yes, it's good practice to start slow, work through your transition points, close your roll and then slow back down.

A few of the guys here including myself have had TONS of snare lessons and I'm really not a teacher so take my advice with a grain of salt- but I can pull pretty clean dbls on my kick and do allright with 5 stroke/6 strokes/sextuple dbls/ stuff like that.

I sorta try to "moeller" with my feet and you need good control with your heel as well (to keep beater from splatting into the head)... all I can say is practice.  This technique is tuff to pull off in loud volume situations, but if your kick is triggered you could probably get away with it.

The faster I get on a kick drum the more I realize how much time I've wasted.  It just seems like I could have spent my time going in more effective directions with my playing.  JMHO
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BBJones
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2003, 10:59 AM »

Geez don't get me started on the "hindsight is 20/20" thing thinking about how I could have spent the last 20 years... Tongue

I am talking more about the hand technique.  Perhaps you can explain how and where you use "rebound only" rolls?  I added the point in about the buzz roll since that is the one roll so far that I think feels right not using finger control and relying totally on the rebound.

I don't think it matters if the rolls are open (controlled) or more closed (more buzz/bounce) but I'm currently working on controlling simple double strokes that are clean.  Did I get that right?  Open vs Closed? Smiley

So just take a clean double stroke roll from slow to fast.  Do you end up using ONLY stick rebound at your top speed and would you really ever do this?  Or does you top speed end at the abilities of your fingers to control a clean double stroke roll?
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felix
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2003, 11:21 AM »

multiple bounce rolls are used more in concert snare applications.  I don't really use them, cause in an amplified setting they don't cut very well-  you can get them to work in acoustic/solo situations.  A "hard pulled dbl" or press roll is usually my weapon of choice when I want the effect.  But in rock a dbl is just so fast and the louder your band/bigger the room- you might want to not really go much faster then 16 th notes if you wanna cut thru.  YMMV  Less is for more.  More is for less  Grin
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Jon E
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2003, 11:32 AM »

Regarding the FEET aspect of this,....

Most folks can probabaly sit down and make their feet play real fast singles, RLRLRLRLRLRLRL!!!!  But it's also likely that this is just their legs playing fast for fast' sake without any real control.  Sort of a Spaz mode.

Likewise, these same folks can proabaly BD single nice and slow:  R    L    R    L     R     L.

But as they (and I'm including myself in this since I am NOT a good dbl BDer at all) speed up they hit a point where their limbs cannot control themselves, and the leap into the previously mentioned Spaz mode.  OR, if slowing down from Spaz mode they lose all sense of timing, etc.

This Gap should be attacked from both ends in order to gain control of the MUSCLES that allow us to play in control. THIS same philosophy can be applied to hands/arms too.
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bongo
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2003, 08:45 PM »

I like the comments here.

Jon E, that's good that 'Spaz Mode'. Might be a good name for a punk band. Yeah, and I think we all know what you mean.

I agree with felix on the hands. I like the power of an opened double stroke with the accent on the second, use the fingers the whole way, and modulate speed to give effect.

 A nice thing is to start with a steaming press roll and control it into a double that slows just a bit to chop it off. It gives the ullusion it was a double stroke all along.
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