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Author Topic: *UPDATE*Big audition coming, need double bass help!  (Read 3152 times)
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sparkitus
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« on: December 08, 2003, 05:52 PM »

Well, for my audition coming up I really need to get in shape fast, and, man, since going on the low carb, I feel like a slug.
Aside from eating high carb again, how can I really build up some speed quick?

Aside from doing paradiddles, my question is, should I use legs, or set the pedals so I can just push down with my toe?
Also, Iron cobras let you adjust the beaters really close to the head, or really far, also, the foot board can be high or low, and this all changes so much of the playability, regarding foot or leg use....




argh, I feel like a noooooooob....


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BBJones
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2003, 06:03 PM »

How fast do you need to play?  How sustained?

200bpm for fills?  200bpm for 4 bars at a time?
260bpm blasts?  Need more info...

How much time do you have before the audition?
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Louis
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2003, 07:06 PM »

Changing kit setup or technique is not a good idea before a big audition.  Continue the way you have been practicing then experiment with things later.
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No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!
sparkitus
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2003, 04:42 AM »

I have 2 weeks and I need to play about 192 for sustained  periods, and I am lucky to pull off 138 right now  Cry
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2003, 05:49 AM »

You can't do much to make up that kind of deficiency in two weeks.  Embarrassed
I'd say, treat the audition as a learning experience, try not to get too wound up about it and just enjoy yourself.
I agree with Louis, now's not the time to change anything. Just do your best.  Cool
For what it's worth, I think both music based on speed alone and lo-carb diets are a fad and the soon as they decline in popularity the better.  Wink
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felix
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2003, 06:05 AM »

Relax.  That is the only way to blaze.  If you tighten up, you aren't relaxed enough.

And that's a big deficit.

Do the audition, practice up for it the best you can and have fun- jam.

Auditions  Roll Eyes  I hate those things.
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Louis
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2003, 06:21 AM »

Increasing your speed 39% in two weeks is virtually impossible to do.  Go to the audition and have fun.   The more you audition the less you are stressed during an audition so this may pay huge dividends in the future.  The main thing is to have fun.  
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No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!
BBJones
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2003, 12:06 PM »

Yowsers!  Double bass at around 180 or less is a totally different technique than double bass at 200-260+.  With proper instruction you may get a feel for it praciticing like mad for 2 weeks, but it is very unlikely you will be able to incorporate a new technique like that into your overall playing during the same period.  But, that really does depend on the person and their natual ability/gear/practice ethics etc.

I don't want to sound like you should give up hope on this audition, but you should be prepared to handle it with the possibility that you won't be doing double bass at 200bpm.  If you have enough of what they are looking for (personality fit, band vision, attitude, other playing skills) then you may be able to impress them enough without the double bass skills.  Those things can be learned easily enough with practice, a good attitude cannot.

Be confident about what you can do and impress them with what you have, but also show them that you are dedicated to your drums and will only continue to improve.

However it works out, just as everyone else is saying, try to learn as much as you can from the experience.  If you don't get in the band this time around, maybe you will next time.  Just keep working on what you think you want to be doing as a drummer.  Get into any band, play and practice and learn as much as possible.  If you do that, bands will come looking for you when you are good enough, not the other way around.

If you want more details on the fast double bass technique, post here or send me a message/email.  I'd be glad to help you figure it out Smiley
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sparkitus
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2003, 06:41 PM »

Well, I bought a metronome. I also started eating some fruit to help with the low carb thing. I am also stretching. My legs feel tired today.
After minutes and minutes of 16th notes at 130 bpm... I ave a long way to go. Hopefully that will get my coordination back.
I went between 100, 110, 120, 125 and 130,. I tried 140 a little bit. BUt my legs are just tired today. I've been doing db workouts like this everyday, though. I guess I can already see an improvement, but I checked it out, and I need to get up to 16th notes @ 175bpm for bars at a time.
I am still having trouble finding that "sweet spot" on my pedals, that perfect balance of resistance and range and beater height.
I'll get there.

Maybe I should take a day off and let my legs rest a little?

BBJones -  I'd gladly take you up o that, thanks.

I just remember being like 16 years old (now 30) and I could kick it up, no problem. I just can't seem to lay into it the same way anymore.
I have not played serioulsy in like 10 years, so, sure, that could have something to do with it...
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BBJones
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2003, 11:43 PM »

Definitely take a full day off at least once a week, if not twice.  Same approach to weightlifting depending on how much you stress your muscles.

When you're not woking your feet, you can work your hands.  But, it's always nice to have a full day away from it mentally.

We can keep posting here or send me an email if you like.  First, what typeof pedals do you have, and how do you have them setup?  Please be as descriptive as you can Smiley  And can you describe your technique and practice methods in detail?

Being 30 sucks don't it Smiley  I can't play well without warming up anymore...
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sparkitus
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2003, 06:55 AM »

Iron Cobra Power Glide Double Pedal.
I am trying to find the sweet spot. I can't find a constant "safe" zone, regarding spring tension, distance, foot board height (which changes the tension DRASTICALLY), etc.
I followed a post somewhere on here that mentions the beater should travel halfway to the head when your foot is resting on the pedal. That seemed to help.
I know there have been times when all I have to do is adjust something ever so slightly, and I can play 10 bpm faster (or more). Other times, it takes 2 hours of warm up. Other times, I'm dead and useless after a minute at 135.

For practicing, I am just sitting with the metronome and playing 16th notes through the different bpms listed above.

I also play along with music, and try just playing db over it all. My favorite lately is "Welcome Home" from King Diamond. I'll play 16ths over the whole song instead of the existing pattern.
I then go through the rest of the "Them" album and play 16th notes wherever I can.

My largest problem is that if I make the pedals "easier" to press down, so that I don't have to "lay into it" with my legs, I don't have the same control.
Or, if I use it a little heavier, where I'm using my legs, too, they get tired, and I'm shot.
I do see the way pivoting from the ankle/using the ball of the foot can help, especially using high spring tension, and starting with the beater a little closer to the head I just am kinda stuck in between the legs and the foot....
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felix
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2003, 08:43 AM »

Don't play harder, play smarter... see if you can substitute some quads as opposed to making your legs do all the work.   Cheesy

There is more than one way to skin a cat.  Hey, did I say that? Cool
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sparkitus
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2003, 11:00 AM »

Thanks all for your brainstorming. Sometimes, though, a fast double-picked guitar riff just calls for double bass 16th notes, especially in a verse.  Plus, the songs are already recorded as such. I won;t go in there trying to re-do the songs to the point of unfamiliarity , they sound great the way they are.

Update: I raised my throne, brought the beaters closer and shorter, and am using more "foot" it seemed to help a little. We'll see.
It seems as though what is like butter one day is impossible the next. So, then I change throne height, pedal adjustments, and then that works that day...
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BBJones
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2003, 12:31 PM »

Everything you've posted so far leads me to believe you just haven't been working on it long enough.

Pedal setup doesn't matter much until you get into 180bpm+  Same with throne height, warmups etc...

I spent over 6 months adjusting and trying stuff out with my IC Power Glides.  In the end, I had them setup pretty much the same as any other non-adustable pedal Tongue  The difference was that my technique was better, my muslces more conditioned and my stamina improved.

I'm curious, how often do you practice heel down?  You should have the same stamina heel down as you do heel up.  You may not be able to go as fast with one over the other for top speed, but for the slow and mid tempo beats, you should be comfortable switching between the two.  If you can't, you need more work on the muscles.

Practicing heel down gives you probably twice the shin workout than practicing heel up.  I'm not saying you should play heel down, but you should practice heel down.

How long have you been at it?  Trying to get comfortable with the double bass?  Can you do it both heel down and heel up?

Just trying to make sure I'm not assuming anything Smiley

As far as the Cobras go, try this out:
- Beaters at 45 degrees back in resting position
- about 1 inch of beater shaft sticking out the bottom (basically have them at what looks like a normal height, not to short, and not too long)
- meduim to loose spring tension.

It may sound weird but usually the less spring tension you have, the faster you can go.  Also, the lower the spring tension, the easier it is to practice heel down.

Throne height is important as well.  Higher is generally better where your thighs are just slightly pointing down.  You may also want to experiment with how far or close your throne is, just for double bass practicing.

And the likely reason you are kicking butt some days, but sucking wind on others is becuase your muscles aren't sure what to do yet.  Hence the need to practice diligently for a solid 6 months.

I'll try to put together some more detailed descriptions regarding certain techniques (or find some links for them).

One thing you likely can't look forward to with your current pedals is taking advantage of the heel-toe technique.  It's not a necessary technique, but can come in handy.  But, the Iron Cobra footbards are too short, unless your feet are really small Smiley

So here's an initial practice suggestion:
- minimum 3 hours
- Heel down at whatever tempo you can sustatain.  Play it as long as you can, all 3 hours if possible.  If you start to get tired, lower the tempo, if it is too easy, increase the tempo.  Any time you stop or fumble a double bass roll, change to lead with the other foot.  So if you start with R L R L ... and screw up and have to start again, then start L R L R L R.  Even though the pattern is exactly the same, you will be amazed at how difficult it is for your brain to handle simply starting the patter with the other foot, and you trying to consciously keep it even.  It's just more muscle control.
- Take the next day off
- Try it again the day after.  Note any difference or change in your ability.

Also, no matter where you are or what you are doing, practice heel down.  Standing around in a lineup (no, not at the jailhouse), tap your foot until your shin gets tired.  The tap the other foot.  Driving in your car?  Tap with the foot that isn't on the gas.  Basically start using your feet as much as possible.  They are more useful than just walking tools Smiley

Also footwear, what do you play with?  Army boots?  Shoes?  Nothing?  Ultimately it won't matter, but at least be consistent with what you have on your feet.  Some of the extreme double bass guys wear huge army boots, some of them play in socks.  It all depends on how you train yourself...
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sparkitus
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2003, 05:34 AM »

Playing heel down makes my shins tighten uo really quickly, I guess I have to stretch them more. But, no, I don't really use heel down too much, not without relying on my legs.
Regarding the IC's, beater @ 45 degrees, medium tenison, ....what about the footboard> high, low, medium?
The beater angle and the board angle are both adjustable (thus ultimatley changing the beater angle and the tension and the full range of motion.)

Thanks So Much!!!
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BBJones
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2003, 12:22 AM »

Yup, everything set around medium, making them very close to any other non-adjustable pedal.  If anything, loosen the spring tension almost to the bottom.

The idea is that once your technique is strong, you can take advantage of the adjustment in the pedals for fine tuning.

Sounds like you need to focus on more heel down.  You will pretty much never get the speeds you want with just using your legs.  You will find practicing heel down will make your leg technique MUCH better.  When playing heel up, you don't pay much attention to your shins, but you will be suprised to find out how much it helps having strong shins even for heel up playing.

It takes a few days to get passed the initial fast burn in the shins.  Practice really slow to start, you basically want to go as long as possible, not as fast as possible to start.  The point is to gain as much muscle control as you can first, then you build up speed.

Try that out for a few days and lemme now what happens Smiley

One other thing, do you smoke?  If so, how much?  Doing any type of extreme drumming requires good physical health (same for all drumming really).  Your muscles need to be able to trasport oxygen fast and efficiently.  You can improve this by working out (or lots of drum practicing) as well as by improving your general health (not smoking or drinking excessively, better diet etc...).  Once you have great technique, you can go back to smoking and drinking all you want Wink
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sparkitus
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2003, 09:52 AM »

I sat on my couch for like an hour, feet planted on the floor, and played just with my feet, (heel down), for an hour while watching music videos. Having a hard wood floor helps, I can hear the shoes tap on the floor.
At some points, I got burning, at other points, I found a way to sort of "push" with my leg muscles while still tapping the foot, never lifting the heel (sort of incorporating the energy from the thigh and using it to follow through), and every now and then, fast 16ths started blazing out, IN TIME with what I was listening too!
I keep envisioning it...it's going to happen...I can feel it...
I don't smoke or drink. I lift weights recreationally (enough to see physical benefits and not too much to "run my life"  or become a meathead, lol)
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sparkitus
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2003, 06:55 PM »

Well, played again today, got it around 135 for a while, sometimes it was comfy, other times, really awkward.
I swear, I hate my Iron Cobras....
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Carn
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2003, 06:31 AM »

nothing wrong with them. You want to build a house while you basically can only build a shoddy wall. Stuff like double bass playing takes time, I've been playing double bass for 1,5 year, and the "fastest' I can go is around 150 bpm on a sunny day. I dont sweat it, because I know, that next year, I can probably make it to 160, the year after that, 170, etc. So If I can reach the 190 or even 200 bpm mark after 5 years of practicing, I`ll be quite happy.
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felix
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2003, 01:31 PM »

And then you just start getting slower  Undecided

What's up with that.

Felix's new motto:

"Slow but good"  Grin
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