Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2003, 03:22 AM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
john
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2003, 07:33 AM » |
|
Wow. Done any session work? Expect to ever do any more?
Yes to both. A drummer shouldn't be expected to alter the approach to his instrument any more than an acoustic guitarist, for example, would be asked to sit differently to accommodate a mic. An inch isn't going to make a difference either way; the post I replied to alluded to moving the ride cymbal a foot, which, IMO, is unacceptable.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mister Acrolite
Sous Chef
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5637
Mr. Positive
|
 |
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2003, 07:47 AM » |
|
Yes to both.
A drummer shouldn't be expected to alter the approach to his instrument any more than an acoustic guitarist, for example, would be asked to sit differently to accommodate a mic.
An inch isn't going to make a difference either way; the post I replied to alluded to moving the ride cymbal a foot, which, IMO, is unacceptable.
Fair enough. I'm not as bothered by being asked to change things, but I can't say I've been asked to do anything that makes my kit significantly harder to play. But let's kick this up a notch. You show up at the session, and the artist or producer tells you they don't want you to use any cymbals. What do you do? Jerry Marotta got asked to do this for Peter Gabriel. The result made drumming history. But from the way some of you have posted here, is it safe to assume you'd have walked out of the session?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 8733
Y no keno!
|
 |
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2003, 07:54 AM » |
|
Jerry Marotta got asked to do this for Peter Gabriel. The result made drumming history. But from the way some of you have posted here, is it safe to assume you'd have walked out of the session?
Security is the best album!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yaay!
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2003, 08:07 AM » |
|
A drummer shouldn't be expected to alter the approach to his instrument any more than an acoustic guitarist, for example, would be asked to sit differently to accommodate a mic.
I can't agree at all. I've witnessed all kinds of musicians being asked to do uncomfortable things....just to get the job done for whatever reason. They usually see it as a challenge and afterwards often remark on their satisfaction of a job well done. In my studio experience, even if you were asked to move the ride cymbal by a foot, you'd get a lot less work (and respect actually) if you didn't at least give it a go.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2003, 08:09 AM » |
|
From the way some of you have posted here, is it safe to assume you'd have walked out of the session?

|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
john
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2003, 08:43 AM » |
|
You show up at the session, and the artist or producer tells you they don't want you to use any cymbals. What do you do?
Jerry Marotta got asked to do this for Peter Gabriel. The result made drumming history. But from the way some of you have posted here, is it safe to assume you'd have walked out of the session?
To answer your first question, you don't use cymbals. Playing without a cymbal is not the same as playing it where the set-up feels wrong. Feel is everything. Secondly, why would you walk out because you don't play cymbals on a cut? That's plain foolish.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
563
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 6612
drum + hand
|
 |
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2003, 09:03 AM » |
|
You show up at the session, and the artist or producer tells you they don't want you to use any cymbals. What do you do?
Jerry Marotta got asked to do this for Peter Gabriel. The result made drumming history. But from the way some of you have posted here, is it safe to assume you'd have walked out of the session? Keith, you and Chrisso seem to be approaching this from a hired gun standpoint. And in a case like this, where you are a hired gun, I think everyone here would agree that, yeah, you pull the cymbals off and make history. But many of us dont think from that perspective first. This is the same thing that came up on that other thread. If your first thoughts are from the standpoint of going into the studio with your originals band that you are an equal member of, then OF COURSE your first thoughts would be different than if your first thoughts were from a hired gun standpoint. When someone asks me a question about changing my setup, I think, will that change suit MY music, will it convey MY sound that Ive spent time crafting. Because my primary role is that of a equal share member of a band playing music we/I have written. And I think thats legit. And Its obviously different than how someone who's primary role is that of a hired gun would think. It doesnt mean I wont try the change. Just that there would be a more personal invested interest in what you have.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland
|
|
|
Louderdb
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 1563
Ha!
|
 |
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2003, 09:16 AM » |
|
I do most certainly agree with 563. As I stated before, if you're a session gun then yeah, you better be ready to play naked if thats what they ask you to do. They're paying you to do what they tell to do! You're HIRED to play what and when they tell you to. But if you're recording your own stuff and footing the bill for it, the shoe is on the other foot! I have no problem with the engineer asking if I can move something or play a different pattern or whatever in a session I'm paying for! (Especially if he asks nicely!  ) It's happened, I've done it. Sometimes I liked what he suggested. Sometimes not. If I didn't like it I said so and we did it my way. Because I'm buying!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
My pen won't work. How do I sign the www?
|
|
|
Mister Acrolite
Sous Chef
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5637
Mr. Positive
|
 |
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2003, 09:36 AM » |
|
Keith, you and Chrisso seem to be approaching this from a hired gun standpoint... True, and that constitutes much of my studio experience. But I've also done a lot of recording with bands. The main thing I've learned, which I think applies both to hired guns and independent recording artists, is that you will almost ALWAYS get better results by approaching a session with a cooperative, open-minded attitude. If you simply treat an engineer as a servant, you may not get their best work. If however, you look for that engineer's knowledge and strengths, and look for ways to apply them to recording your music, you may make some magic. So if some engineer who records every day in his own studio says "I think you'll have better luck with the front head off that drum," or "can you maybe raise your cymbals some - they're bleeding into the mix, and messing with that killer tom sound we've been getting," I'm all ears. If I'm reluctant to do the thing they've asked, I'll politely express my reluctance, tell them why I'm reluctant, and emphasize what kind of sound I'm looking for. If they seem to understand me, but assure me that their way will help me get that sound, I'm game. But to simply say "no" to an engineer's request, simply because it isn't how I planned to do things, seems short-sighted. Some really wacky things that might never occur to you can make for great sounding recordings. I did a session where Yes's live soundman was the engineer. He had me lay a floor tom on its side on the floor, facing my bass drum. Then he mic'd it - it added an amazing low end to my bass drum sound. I had to drive home and get another floor tom from my apartment to do this, but it was worth it. Another engineer mic'd my bass drum with a guitar speaker, using it as a transducer. I've tracked on house kits that both looked and sounded awful, but sounded great on tape. All this I learned by saying "yes," not "no." And I'm still learning. One thing I think almost anybody who's done any recording at a decent studio will agree on: it's different in the studio. Different rules apply. Untraditional approaches may produce the best results. If you go in with an open mind, you can surprise yourself with the great results you may achieve. Or you can treat your engineer like an Olan Mills portrait photographer, and just force them to capture things your way. That may work, but I think doing that misses out on exploring the talent and ideas most good engineers have.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2003, 09:40 AM » |
|
Secondly, why would you walk out because you don't play cymbals on a cut? That's plain foolish.
I think he means no cymbal and no hi-hat. Then it becomes a nightmare session IMO! Cymbals and hi-hats are a great crutch to lean on. Take them away and grooving is a whole other deal. Not only that, but what do you do at the end of every fill? It's a real conundrum IMO and a ligit scenario for the Acrolite man to pose
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Sean Dempsey
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2003, 09:43 AM » |
|
Jerry Marotta got asked to do this for Peter Gabriel. The result made drumming history. But from the way some of you have posted here, is it safe to assume you'd have walked out of the session?
It depends if you are a drummer for hire or not. I am not a drummer for hire. I play with my band, or play my own music. I wouldn't have even considered showing up to play somenoe elses music. No drum Karaoke for me. That's like wanting to have the Sun play at your house, but then asking it to not shine so brightly, and could you please be red instead of yellow? Some Sun's might sell out to cash in, others would stay true to themselves. It just depends on what kind of drummer you want to be.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mister Acrolite
Sous Chef
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5637
Mr. Positive
|
 |
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2003, 09:53 AM » |
|
No drum Karaoke for me. That's like wanting to have the Sun play at your house, but then asking it to not shine so brightly, and could you please be red instead of yellow? Some Sun's might sell out to cash in, others would stay true to themselves. It just depends on what kind of drummer you want to be. GMAFB. (rhymes with give me a bucking frake)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2003, 09:59 AM » |
|
If your first thoughts are from the standpoint of going into the studio with your originals band that you are an equal member of, then OF COURSE your first thoughts would be different than if your first thoughts were from a hired gun standpoint.
No, I was trying to cover this in my previous posting. There is a huge area you are ignoring, that is drumming in a signed band. The record company will hire a producer, who will in turn hire his favourite engineer. If you (as a band member) go in with the wrong attitude they will be looking to hire their favourite session drummer too. Yes, as Louderdb points out, you may be paying for it yourself in a project studio.....but let's hope one day the record company are paying for it (albeit out of your advance!). Believe me, I've been called in so many times to replace a band drummer who couldn't cut it or wouldn't try different heads or the rental kit the producer brought in. 99.9% of the time the other band members didn't back the drummer against the producer, who probably had multiple Grammy's or a string of recent hits under his belt. If you say "I wont raise my cymbals another foot" I can guarantee you the other band members will be muttering "Oh Jeez" under their breath. I've seen it countless times. I've also toured with bands. I have been asked to compromise on many occassions by live video directors or live sound engineers. It's the same thing. Most often the lead singer or songwriter will side with the person they believe will do their own cause the most good. You guessed it......that's usually not the drummer.  I guess there are instances where bands really do stick together and ruthlessly guard their creative control. In my experience that has been by far the minority of bands I've been in or sessioned for.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2003, 10:09 AM » |
|
Some Sun's might sell out to cash in, others would stay true to themselves.
I guess that was designed to piss Keith and I off. OK, I'll take the bait.... So Peter Erskine has cashed in? Steve Gadd, Hal Blaine, Kenny Aronoff, Jeff Porcaro have all sold out.....? For all your artistic purity are you half the drummer those guy's are? I hope so with that attitude. Some people enjoy playing with a variety of different artists, they enjoy broadening their musical horizons, to be honest they'd all admit to doing what they're doing even if they didn't get paid. My advice is wake up and smell the coffee. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2003, 10:20 AM » |
|
563 and Louderdb. I'm sure Mr A and I can confine our comments to the situations 'band drummers' face, both live and recording. Where I agree with your last few postings is in the area of the self made record. Or as Louderdb say's "I'm paying". I realise that even signed bands have a big say in choice of producer and a big say also in creative decisions. It's my experience however that record producers often come in with attitudes you're not expecting. They will have the full weight of the record company behind them and it's often the case that certain members of the band will fall in behind, leaving you dangling. As I just said, a few musicians will remain creatively intact, but the vast majority will have been screwed with at some point or other. As I also said before (and as Keith just reitterated), whenever I have been screwed with I've often learnt from it (still am  ). Sometimes you just get burned though. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Louderdb
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 1563
Ha!
|
 |
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2003, 10:24 AM » |
|
You know, I'll have to say I think we can all talk about this without flaming! In particularly but not limited to Mr. A. Bad form Sean. And Chris I have to say that I understand your point about collaborating (actually you and Keith both make that point well). I can point out 3 local bands that have "made it" and lost their drummer in the process. Not sure why the drummer was tossed. May very well be because they were inflexible or just couldn't hack it. I don't know. Want to know who they were? First one that comes to mind was Fuel. Second was Full Devil Jacket (or fulldeviljacket) and the third was Blue Tears. All got record deals and immediately got new drummers! But again, we're talking about a situation where someone else is paying for the studio time and the producer too.  These guys were under contract to produce a product. So they're no longer working for themselves. They're working for the record company! That's different.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
My pen won't work. How do I sign the www?
|
|
|
Chris Whitten
Honorary Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5861
|
 |
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2003, 10:30 AM » |
|
I guess I should apologise for harsh words. I can't help being protective of my own reputation, so I was a bit more aggressive than I intended to be. To be honest, the concept that some of my heroes had just been engaged in 'drum karaoke' their whole careers was laughable.......but I still couldn't help myself from firing off a broadside. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Louderdb
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 1563
Ha!
|
 |
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2003, 10:39 AM » |
|
No I think Sean has started the flame and he should probably choose his words more carefully. We can communicate without mud slinging. I actually enjoy this thread a great deal and let me say thanks to all for their insight. It's a healthy topic. We just need to quell the name calling if we don't agree. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
My pen won't work. How do I sign the www?
|
|
|
|
Sean Dempsey
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2003, 11:13 AM » |
|
I am not flaming, I just don't believe in studio musicians. And I've never heard of those guys you mention, so I can't have an opinion on them or what they did. I don't know why you got defensive. I am a horrible drummer who has been playing for 5 years and have never heard or heard of anyone you talk about, the only drummer that I know who is famous is Buddy Rick, but I've never actually heard him. I have heard Terry Bozzio (bonzo, right?) but am not into that.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|