Mister Acrolite
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« on: January 25, 2004, 10:42 AM » |
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I always hear the suggestions of using "glancing blows" on the cymbals, and it sounds like nice advice, but in my experience, that's not how pros really hit them. I just watched some Vinnie C and Steve Smith videos to reinforce that stance, and what I saw backed up my assertion.
I just think that advice mostly comes from some cymbal company's marketing people, hoping to minimize the amount of returns they get. If you play hard, you will occasionally break cymbals - there's no real way around it.
Rather than trying to hit cymbals with sweeping side to side motions, I instead suggest that you put a lot of thought into the height, angle, mounting, and position of your cymbals. If your stick is hitting at an angle nearly perpendicular to the edge of the cymbal, you're going to do a lot more damage. Try to angle them so that your stick hits the cymbal's edge at only a slight angle.
Mount the cymbal loosely, so that it can move when you hit it.
And don't overplay a cymbal - most of them have a finite volume range, and if you hit them harder than what is required to reach that volume level, you'll get no increase in volume, will actually get a harsher, less pleasant cymbal sound, and will be greatly decreasing the life of the cymbal.
In the pros, most rock, pop, and country drummers hit pretty hard. And most of them occasionally break cymbals. Like a drumhead or a stick, a cymbal - particularly a crash, china, or splash - can be thought of as a finite resource. It can get used up eventually, and will need to be replaced. By approaching the way you choose them, set them up, and play them with a LOT of thought, you can maximize their life expectancy.
But skip the glancing blows, unless you just think they look cool. Hell, most trained drummers work for years on their snare drum technique to AVOID glancing blows. Just my opinion.
Mr. A.
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diddle
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2004, 03:14 PM » |
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And don't overplay a cymbal - most of them have a finite volume range, and if you hit them harder than what is required to reach that volume level, you'll get no increase in volume
absolutely agree! I see a lot of younger drummers hit cymbals as hard as they can. Sometimes that's easy to do when you are really getting into the music ... but that will only shorten the cymbal life. Every cymbal will have a peak volume and hitting it harder does nothing but cause damage. I was thinking about how I strike a cymbal. My technique is to hit it perpendicular to the surface at no more than forte (medium loud). I do whip the stick back (as opposed to trying to drive the stick through).
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nudrum
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2004, 03:23 PM » |
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I have broken 2 crashes and 1 splash in my long storied career. I can remember placing the cymbals horizontal to the ground because that the way alot of drummers had them. This puts the shoulder of the stick on the edge of the cymbal making a really loud crash, and puts alot of stress on one little point on the cymbal. It's no wonder they cracked. I have not broken a cymbal in 20 years. Part of this is I am not playing in a rock and roll band. Also I have my cymbals at an angle which gives me more options for where to hit the crash, rather than only on the edge. And when i crash it with the side of the stick along the side (bow) of the cymbal it spreads the force over a greater area.
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2004, 03:42 PM » |
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Better to strike your cymbals at 3/4 volume if possible. There are no real benefits to thrashing the cymbals IMO. The sound engineer (live or studio) will thank you for keeping the cymbal volume in proportion to your drums. I don't do the 'glancing blow' thing, but I do like to strike cymbals with a relaxed arm, even when playing loud. It's all the same as sports IMO. If you try too hard you wont hit a golf ball or home run too far. If you are relaxed and get your timing right your cymbals will sing and project volume.
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2004, 03:57 PM » |
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right on Mr A! especially on the looser cymbals point, i played my friend's set and his cymbals were tighter than my drumheads! he asked me if i could figure out why he kept breaking cymbals  ! i like to keep my cymbals down low, mainly because i use everything as rides, but it gives the added benefit of keeping my cymbals safe. i can't smash the edges. for a crash, i have to hit near the edge with the tip of a stick.
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Nick
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2004, 01:21 AM » |
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Mr A, I agree with you on the set up & the not overplaying a cymbal, but for me personally incorporating the glancing blows technique (& playing multiple cymbal hits in an oval shape) I have reduced my personal cymbal breakage big time…  I also feel much more fluid in my cymbal technique after incorporating the glancing blows thing & personally feel as though I have much more dynamic control than I every did before, it was almost like breaking though a wall for me… Pre glancing blows I was breaking a china & sometimes a splash, every three months or so, now we have definitely moved into years rather than months if they break at all, & my setup and volume is the same as it always was. I also agree that some cymbals can be a finite resource, but I do thing that the glancing blows technique used in conjunction with the other point you mentioned, can make a big difference for some people.  N
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2004, 03:40 AM » |
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I have varying ways that I hit my cymbals.If I am playing a hard rock beat I whack em.How can you not? If I playing laid back and very groove oriented I glide my stick across the egde.Then again its a completely different sound and feel.I have broken cymbals,I don't know many drummers who havn't broken at least 1 cymbal in their drumming career.I did however know one drummer who always broke his Hi-hats.Now that kid was a hard hitter.Every show the band I am did with his band he always had all new cymbals.He went though cymbals like people go through gas for their cars.Always getting more.And in my tenure of using Sabians which has been the past 3 years I have only broken 2 new cymbals ( and that was after about a year and a half of everyday use on each ) reinstating once again...Love my Sabian's.. 
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irishthump
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2004, 04:13 AM » |
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The glancing blow never worked for my either! It just seems so unnatural. Like Mr A said, it's all about the angle of the cymbal and not laying into it too much. Personally, I hav'ent broken a cymbal in about 15 years! I think the best way to hit a crash cymbal is to hit it like a drum, your hand should be pulling away as soon as you strike it. Dave Weckyl actually demonstrates this technique in his Back to Basics video.
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2004, 04:16 AM » |
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I have managed this technique to a degree.I am not a professional at it but when I hit the cymabl its not a complete follow through technique.Its not like golf where I have to follow through with the swing.Its more and forward and as I am going forward I am already going back technique.
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irishthump
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2004, 04:23 AM » |
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That's more or less what I do, I follow through a small amount then immediately pull back. It seems to me an obvious way to hit cymbals, you have to pull back anyway to get your stick out of the way of the cymbal.
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"Free your mind, and your sticks will follow....."
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2004, 04:30 AM » |
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That and you have to get it quicky back to the snare/hats/ride/toms whatever is after the cymbal.
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jokerjkny
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2004, 10:30 AM » |
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hmm... the only time i'm really mindful of how i hit a cymbal is when i'm demo'ing one in a drum shop, and dont wanna tick off the management. 
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felix
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2004, 10:40 AM » |
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I'm from the john bonham cymbal school where he said "drums always sound better than cymbals"
I usually tend to underplay my cymbals when I crash while playing my drums MUCH firmer. It's a better sound to me. I also underplay may hats That is a peeve for me to never have the cymbals overbearing. The trick is to get the "mix" just right.
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Chris
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2004, 11:50 AM » |
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but you gotta remember that most professionals won't pay for their cymbals  i watched a thomas lang dvd, and he definitely using the "glancing blows". i just think it's important to mount and position your cymbals properly, and not use iron hammers to play the cymbals with.
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jokerjkny
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2004, 12:25 PM » |
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woah, you got the Lang DVD already? oi.. been waiting for that one for a LONG while.
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funmachine
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2004, 04:30 PM » |
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Well, I'm embarrassed to say that I learned a LOT about playing cymbals from reading the instructions that came with my Sabians a few years ago. This, after playing 20+ years! I practiced the glancing blows, the shoulder smack etc while I was playing some quiet gigs like the Elks/Eagles et al, and discovered a lot of sounds I had never gotten before. I think the exaggerating of the glancing blow is a way to learn, then you can take shortcuts later. (For years I had been crashing almost flat against the edge of the cymbal and couldn't figure out why I would get "duds" so often....jeez what a dope.)
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marker
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2004, 10:14 PM » |
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Mr. Acrolite - I agree completely. I think your gear should work for you, not vice versa.
If you pick your cymbals to match your style of music, they should last for a good while. Eventually, however, a crash will break, due to metal fatigue. I've had crashes that died in two years, and one that lasted almost twenty.
The idea that I'm supposed to devote my playing technique to the preservation of a cymbal is absurd. I personally would rather devote my technique to making music as well as I can.
Typically, I hit a crash just hard enough to get the sound I want. I do edge the cymbal. Cymbals struck on the bow don't sound very good.
If a cymbal dies once in a while during this process, so be it.
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2004, 10:30 PM » |
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AND i've never broken a cymbal! use the random technique, i get comments from everyone i play with about how slick my setup looks with everything down low like that.
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mfran
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2004, 02:31 PM » |
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I'm from the john bonham cymbal school where he said "drums always sound better than cymbals" I usually tend to underplay my cymbals when I crash while playing my drums MUCH firmer. It's a better sound to me. I also underplay may hats That is a peeve for me to never have the cymbals overbearing. The trick is to get the "mix" just right.
Felix is right. Getting the mix right is the top goal in my book, and it does start with the drummer, even before any sound hits the mic's. I used to read MIX Magazine religiously (every week on sunday?) and I would study any info I could find about sound engineering and producing, and I often heard engineers and/or drummers say that in the studio it helps to hit the drums a little harder, and the cymbals a little softer --- the mix improves a lot before any faders need to be adjusted at the board, and less radical EQ is necessary if the cymbal volume is not off the wall. Combine that with the fact that cymbals do cut thru the mix very well, and may be pretty loud out in the house, out in the audience, or on the tape. For glancing blows on the cymbals, practice doing an "L" shape (or backward L for the left hand) and it goes a long way. It looks cool too, I recall fondly watching early MTV videos of Rainbow, Deep Purple, Dio, Whitesnake, Michael Schenker, or whatever other incarnation of the Purple was popular back then in the tumultuous 80's, it all blurs for me now.... but the drummer in question, was Cozy Powell, and he would give a nice twist of the wrist after hitting the cymbal in songs like "All Night Long" or 'Can't Happen Here". I always strove to sound and look that cool. The jury is still out. Another tip... when someone looks like they hit a cymbal straight on, they may in fact be "pulling their punches" if you know what I mean... the strike may be measured, stopping short at the point of impact and pulling back. The same way a jewel thief might punch "up to" the glass, breaking it, but not "through" the glass, which would cut him and require hospitalization. Knowing where the point of impact is and pulling back right at it is a learned art. If you have nothing to do tonight, and want a way to practice this "pulling back at point of impact", tie a knot in the end of a 2 foot rope, hang a cymbal on it, hanging off of a stand... practice hitting it right on repeatedly, just enough to make a sound, and rebound quick---help the rebound a bit yourself. Hit the cymbal just hard enough to make a nice sound, but not enough to make it go loop-de-loo'ing around the stand. When you get it right, and can achieve a few hits in a quick succession repeatedly, it sounds nice. If you miss the third or fourth hit because the cymbal moved, and the stick flew out of your hand because you were holding it so loosely, I think you got it! 
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jokerjkny
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2004, 01:18 AM » |
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I'm from the john bonham cymbal school where he said "drums always sound better than cymbals"
I usually tend to underplay my cymbals when I crash while playing my drums MUCH firmer. It's a better sound to me. I also underplay may hats That is a peeve for me to never have the cymbals overbearing. The trick is to get the "mix" just right.
hmm... interesting thought. cool that felix and mfran mentioned this, cause a friend in one of my bands recently told me my overall sound was too shrill and "cymbally". at first, i was like, "eh, its just me playing cymbals, so what?" but, i guess now i know what he means. besides laying off the plates for a bit, looking for a nice balance, i guess i need to also pay more attention and really listen to what i'm actually playing, rather than just letting my arms fly about.
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...this aint no time fo' jibba jabba!
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2004, 06:55 AM » |
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hmm...
interesting thought. cool that felix and mfran mentioned this, cause a friend in one of my bands recently told me my overall sound was too shrill and "cymbally". at first, i was like, "eh, its just me playing cymbals, so what?"
but, i guess now i know what he means. besides laying off the plates for a bit, looking for a nice balance, i guess i need to also pay more attention and really listen to what i'm actually playing, rather than just letting my arms fly about. I'd suggest not so much that you lay off on the cymbals, but that you make a conscious effort to blend the sounds of the various components of your kit. Don't just hit all the instruments at the same volume and assume that will work. That's a common signpost of an amateur drummer. On some songs, you may want to downplay the hihat, so that it's felt rather than heard. Your toms may need to be slammed to really articulate. Get to know your kit, and what is required to get the sounds in your head. You may be surprised by the modifications in your technique this will require. Listen to your favorite CDs - often the bass and snare are far more prominent than the hat or ride. Most inexperienced drummers I've heard play too heavy with the hihat and ride, and could stand to beef up their attack on the bass drum. But that's a sweeping generalization. I sometimes envision a mixing board, and I'll modify my technique to raise or lower the levels of each drum and cymbal, based on the overall blend I want to achieve. One of the reasons I don't cross my hands when I keep time on my hihat is so that I can maintain independent volume levels for both hihat and snare. Gadd is probably the best I've heard at blending sounds - some of his ghost note drumming is almost impossible to figure out, because he blends the sounds of the hat and snare to a point where it's hard to tell which instrument he's hitting. Anyway, you've just discovered another layer to this onion. Keep it up!
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redchapterjubilee
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2004, 08:25 AM » |
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After having broken two crashes, one hi-hat cymbal and two ride cymbals over a three-year period I sat down and really analyzed what I was doing wrong.
I had a 1970's A medium ride that had keyholed and eventually broke about three inches below the bell. So when I bought my next ride (a 20" a Custom Projection Ride) I made sure that all of my cymbal stands had plastic sleeves. Imagine my surprise when I next broke my 18" AA medium crash. So I duly replaced the cymbal with a brand new one just like it AND put all of my cymbals on the Aquarian springs, thinking that would save me. I noticed after a couple of months of use I noticed that the ride cymbal spring was creaking a lot. So I took off the spring and noticed the cymbal was still creaking. Sure enough, I broke that one too. Then I took the other cymbal off the spring and, once again, broke the crash cymbal too, and the top hi-hat cymbal (a 14" quick beat top.)
After wasting hundreds of dollars, I anaylzed how I hit the cymbals and how I mount them. I noticed that: A. I used big sticks (2B's) B. I mounted the cymbals high and flat. C. I crashed with the shoulder of the stick. D. I had a very heavy ride hand. E. I kept my hi-hat clutch very tight.
So I switched to 5A's, mounted my crashes lower at about a 30 degree angle, play the crashes mostly with the bead of the stick, hit the cymbals much lighter, and replaced my hi-hat clutch with a nicer one that stays in place while giving the top hi-hat the opportunity to move. Almost two years later I've yet to break another cymbal (knock on wood.) In fact, I've added a second crash, an 18" K dark crash thin that sounds beautiful at low volumes and it's standing up to me!
Mainly it's been about volume. I used to pride myself on playing hard and loud, and I can still do that. I've forced myself to play quieter and my dynamic range is far greater. So although I've lost some great cymbals this way, I've also learned a lot from the experience.
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