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Author Topic: Teaching and legal issues  (Read 730 times)
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jameswalker
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« on: February 05, 2004, 08:24 PM »

Greetings, everyone.

Like just about everyone else on this planet, I'm currently investigating my options in terms of earning my little black beans (in other words, paying the #*&$#* mortgage), and I'm debating whether I want to start teaching lessons out of my home.  My question has less to do with teaching than it does with covering my arse in a legal sense - in other words, insurance.

Do any of you here who teach (or have taught previously) out of your home, have experience in terms of buying insurance, to safeguard against something along the lines of little Billy slipping on the sidewalk and hurting himself?  Do the insurance rates generally negate the financial benefits of teaching?  Is it only "worth it" if I get X-number of students?  Would I be better served to continue teaching at the drum shop where I'm currently working, and letting them take their 50%+ pound of flesh out of what the students pay to study with me?

Any and all thoughts are welcome...TIA.
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drumwild
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2004, 08:47 PM »

I hate to bring this up.... but it has to be said. It's not easy to discuss, and I swear I'm not trying to hijack this thread.

You will also have to safeguard against little Billy being convinced that his teacher touched him inappropriately.

One of my drum teachers (the name will no be mentioned) was acused of inappropriately touching a boy while class was in session in the basement of a music store. We found out about it when a lawyer came to our house and asked us if anything had happened to me in his class. He asked if we were interested in joining in on a lawsuit.

This was before lawsuits were in style and socially "acceptable".

My parents threw the lawyer out of our house. They also took me out of the class, just in case. While I do know that the lawyer was able to get close to 20 families to join in the lawsuit (based on what he said at our house), I never knew the outcome. My lessons resumed elsewhere. I know that nothing happened to me, but I still get creeped out thinking about it. My only hope is that it didn't ruin his life (if he's innocent).

An easy way to protect against this would be to have a sophisticated video/audio recording system that would be used to record EVERY lesson. Having another adult present would not be enough. Unfortunately, there are sick people out there who have no problem using their own kids to make a quick buck.

I've never taught out of my apartment, so someone else will have to comment on the taxes, insurance, liabilities, etc.  Just protect yourself from every possible angle.
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jameswalker
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2004, 08:54 PM »

I hate to bring this up.... but it has to be said. It's not easy to discuss, and I swear I'm not trying to hijack this thread.

You will also have to safeguard against little Billy being convinced that his teacher touched him inappropriately.

You're right.  It's most unfortunate, but in this day and age, that's something to be aware of; thanks for mentioning it in the thread.  I don't think it's hijacking, as it's something very relevant to the issue of protecting yourself from legal issues - even those coming about via false accusations.  There could be any number of "reasons" why little Billy's parents might get little Billy's lawyer on the phone.

It's this kind of "fun," litigious society we live in - and those sorts of issues - that prompted me to start this thread in the first place, and that has me ready to give up on teaching, and just go buy a router table and start making drums in my basement for a living...   Roll Eyes
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2004, 09:25 PM »

The counsel I've received is that unless you plan on teaching a LARGE number of students that would clearly label you as an education facility ... OR ... if you don't plan on teaching a large group class on a regular basis ... your home owners liability insurance should cover you if a student was injured (ie. falling on the steps).

If you only have one or two students in your home at one time ... and you don't plan on teaching 40 students a week ... you should be okay.

I do think you should contact your insurance company and ask some questions. My advice, however, is ask the questions but don't let them know who you are or that you current have insurance with them.  Smiley  I think we all know why ... so no need to explain that.

I personally have never purchased additional insurance for teaching out of my home.

As far as the issues with lawsuits ... I always encourage my students to record their lessons (video/audio) ... so that would help to provide evidence one way or the other. Parents typically wait for their kids at my place because I don't teach young kids for more than 30 minutes; no need for the parent to leave.

Perhaps you should start some policies to help protect yourself. No young students without their parent ... and only 30 minute lessons. Young kids can't handle hour lessons anyway. Teenagers and older  can do the one hour lesson. I typically meet with the parents so they can get to know me, and hopefully gain their trust.

I don't worry about being wrongly accused. And generally, my wife or son is home when I teach.
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2004, 03:00 AM »

Actually, Drumwild's comment was the first thing that came to my mind.
I'm sure you know what you're doing Bart, but it doesn't seem to me you are doing enough to protect yourself against a malicious accusation. What happens when the video camera is turned off for example? Otherwise I think you give excellent advice.
The point is high on my mind because 100's of care workers are appealing against child abuse allegations in the UK. One guy was released yesterday from 2 years in prison after it emerged he wasn't even working at the facility in the period the accustation was made. The Police never bothered to check.
The accused was an older guy, devoutly religious and with a large family of his own btw.
So what can you do....?
I don't know. Insist on chaperones, teach groups of kids rather than individuals......or stick to teaching in public spaces.
It's terrible what modern society has come to, that we have to think of all these things.
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nudrum
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2004, 05:30 AM »

I always give my parents the opportunity to watch the lesson. Most don't. Being an occupational therapist I am used to touching my "clients" and I have given some thought to this facet of being alone with kids.
All my parents display a certain amount of trust of me. I often think "what is it about me that makes them trust me?" and "would I be as trusting as they are?"
Lately I have let precautions slide, thanks for the wakeup!
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2004, 06:24 AM »

I just bought a house and hopefully will be hanging out my shingle in the not-too-dictant future.  When I was setting up my homeowner's insurance I was asked if any teaching would be going on in the house.  I answered "no" at this time, so I don't the ramifications/cost of added insurance.

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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2004, 07:00 AM »

Quote
You will also have to safeguard against little Billy being convinced that his teacher touched him inappropriately.

I had my drums set up in my mini studio area in the first room to the right as you walk in my house. During The week prior to Christmas I moved my drums in to the master bedroom.  After doing this I said to my husband even though you are always home when I have drum lessons(he watches our kids) I am moving them back down stairs. Because of the above mentioned quote. You never no when someone would try to say that.
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2004, 07:15 AM »

If you only have one or two students in your home at one time ... and you don't plan on teaching 40 students a week ... you should be okay.
....

I don't worry about being wrongly accused. And generally, my wife or son is home when I teach.

Quote
Insist on chaperones, teach groups of kids rather than individuals......
-- Quote from Chrisso.

I was taught piano lessons (at least as a beginner) in a group with electric pianos with headphones, and the teacher could talk to and listen to each of us individually by switching between us.  She would show us, individually, what to play and then go to the others as we practiced.  Then she would check our progress in a few minutes and spend a few more minutes with us.  Eventually, I went to individual lessons at her home.  But the group aspect of accountability is a good thing to consider.  I've read that a respected leader in the religious community (please don't take this as being a 'religious' post) always has had his wife present anytime he had a private talk or interview with a woman,for around fifty years now.  That's a good idea.

I have a relative who is a teacher and was accused of sexual harassment by a student.  After months of death threats to him, much stress, and his near mental breakdown, the girl confessed that she was mad at him for giving her a bad grade on her report card, and that nothing had happened.  Charges were dropped immediately, and no action was taken against her. Stuff like that happens, and it's best to have your bases covered.

James, are you considering teaching mallet instruments, drums, or both?  I'm asking to see if it would be possible to teach two at one time.  Two set drummers going at it in the same room would be intolerable, unless you had two sets of VDrums. But a marimba and a vibraphone could live more peaceably across from each other, IMHO. You could teach one while the other practices something for a few minutes, check back and make suggestions, and so on. Just a thought.

Doug
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Tony
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2004, 08:45 AM »

Man, what a terrible state this society is in to have to even consider this.  It's a sad day when obviously qualified people are hesitant to teach something that most school systems are trying to cut, because they're afraid little Johnny might make an accusation.  No wonder we are descending into the toilet as a culture.
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2004, 08:58 AM »

I, also, teach out of my home but I only have a few students, and all are at least 12 years old.  As Bart mentioned, I've been told that my homeowner insurance will cover liability of injury.  As far as sexual harassment, that is a risk everyone takes whether its at home, at work, or wherever.  You can always decline new students that might present a bigger risk (i.e. too young).  
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psycht
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2004, 09:44 AM »

I think videotaping would be a great idea for many reasons.
a) You can sell or give the tape to the student as a educational tool to take home to work with.
b) CYA - Cover your actions - incase of any false acusations for ANY reason you have something on tape.  
c) Keep for yourself and watch yourself teach. Learn how to become better at what you do.
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2004, 10:12 AM »

I think videotaping would be a great idea for many reasons.
a) You can sell or give the tape to the student as a educational tool to take home to work with.
b) CYA - Cover your actions - incase of any false acusations for ANY reason you have something on tape.  
c) Keep for yourself and watch yourself teach. Learn how to become better at what you do.


I video tape the lessons for ALL the above reasons.
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My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
hippie
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2004, 12:18 PM »

-- Quote from Chrisso.

James, are you considering teaching mallet instruments, drums, or both?  I'm asking to see if it would be possible to teach two at one time.  Two set drummers going at it in the same room would be intolerable, unless you had two sets of VDrums. But a marimba and a vibraphone could live more peaceably across from each other, IMHO. You could teach one while the other practices something for a few minutes, check back and make suggestions, and so on. Just a thought.

Doug

  Actually teaching two people at once on the drums is quite doable (I don't think that's even a word). At the place I teach, Lonnie (the guy who I work for) does probably a dozen or so lessons with two at a time. It creates friendly competition between the two students and their improvment rate is sometimes very dramatic.

  Rather than teach them one at a time while the other practices, he teaches them both and if one has a question, he quickly addresses it and then continues on with the lesson. I had to do one of these lessons for him yesterday and I didn't know what to expect but I found that it went well because they can get ideas from each other while we're playing. Hippie out
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ritarocks
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2004, 01:39 PM »

 Actually teaching two people at once on the drums is quite doable (I don't think that's even a word). At the place I teach, Lonnie (the guy who I work for) does probably a dozen or so lessons with two at a time. It creates friendly competition between the two students and their improvment rate is sometimes very dramatic.

  Rather than teach them one at a time while the other practices, he teaches them both and if one has a question, he quickly addresses it and then continues on with the lesson. I had to do one of these lessons for him yesterday and I didn't know what to expect but I found that it went well because they can get ideas from each other while we're playing. Hippie out
interesting.  
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Chris
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2004, 09:29 PM »

Man, what a terrible state this society is in to have to even consider this.  It's a sad day when obviously qualified people are hesitant to teach something that most school systems are trying to cut, because they're afraid little Johnny might make an accusation.  No wonder we are descending into the toilet as a culture.

@$%# sticks :<
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jameswalker
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2004, 09:45 PM »

James, are you considering teaching mallet instruments, drums, or both?  I'm asking to see if it would be possible to teach two at one time.  Two set drummers going at it in the same room would be intolerable, unless you had two sets of VDrums. But a marimba and a vibraphone could live more peaceably across from each other, IMHO. You could teach one while the other practices something for a few minutes, check back and make suggestions, and so on. Just a thought.

Interesting suggestion - I took several "piano classes" in college which were exactly that same situation.

My teaching would - based on what I've done to date - likely include far more drum set and snare drum than mallet instrument studies.  Even if I had two (or more) mallet students who were at the same level of development, I don't know if I'd want to teach them together - I'm so used to one-on-one lessons versus group lessons, and specifically I'm used to being able to tailor the lesson material to an individual student.

Thanks for all the thoughts, comments, and suggestions, everyone - please keep 'em coming if there's anything to be added.  There's already lots of food for thought in this thread.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2004, 12:06 PM »


i do believe you are covered under your general homeowners policy, but double check; there may be some provision for "business activities." then again, it may not cost a lot to tack that activity onto the policy. however, if you did get sued, and the insurance has to pay out, i can only imagine what would happen to your premiums.


you could go the extra distance and incorporate in the states of delaware or nevada [cheaper to do there]. then you have the corporate veil of protection and can't be personally sued. they could sue the corporation, but i suspect there's a loophole that allows you to protect those assets as well. you could also have them sign a waiver, though that seems a bit sleazy. nevertheless, i've signed waivers in fencing classes, karate classes, even cooking classes.


i personally don't think teachers should have to resort to including someone else in a lesson. there's a special relationship that evolves from having one-on-one instruction. your duty should be to teach, first and foremost. i could understand if you were a doctor, but you're not conducting physical exams.



still, it's an issue that has to be considered.



let us know what happens....




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