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Author Topic: A technique for practicing polyrhythms  (Read 1226 times)
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BO733
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« on: June 29, 2002, 05:14 PM »

This is an idea for practicing. You don't even need a drumset. If you count to four three times and count to three four times, you'll arrive at the 1 after 12 beats.

Imagine playing 123123123123 with your right hand and 123412341234 with your right foot.  Accent the 1 on each in your mind or try it on your kit. I'm still trying to play it smoothly.  

If you play 1234567 3 times and 123 7 times it lands on 1 after 21 beats. If your left foot plays 1234 and you accent all of the 1's it comes together after 84 beats (7*3*4=84)

It's not rocket science, but trying to train your brain to think polyrhythmically really helps with independence. There are so many permutations it's endless. If you have a Microsoft Excel program simply type the numbers in the cells and create a graph. To see it graphically is really interesting. Just a thought. bye
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BO733
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2002, 12:06 PM »

I'm really interested in Gary Chaffee's technique of 5's against 2's. Could you explain it a little more. I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying. I want to try that technique! Thanks. Smiley
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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2002, 01:31 PM »

Also check out these two books which appear in my Drummers Library - TOP 30 list.

Musicians Guide to Polyrhythms Vol. 1 by Pete Magadini
Musicians Guide to Polyrhythms Vol. 2 by Pete Magadini

It's all math, so getting out the paper and pencil will help a lot as well. For myself (and my past/present students), being able to read music notation really helps because you can visually see what's going on rhythmically.
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jameswalker
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2002, 05:02 PM »

Subdivide, subdivide, subdivide...

...and Bart, dare I mention the benefits of learning North Indian and South Indian counting systems again?  Wink

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Bart Elliott
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2002, 06:35 PM »

...and Bart, dare I mention the benefits of learning North Indian and South Indian counting systems again?

You go man ... you go!  Cool
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jameswalker
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2002, 06:47 PM »

You go man ... you go!  Cool

I'll just start by offering a link to the earlier thread addressing this subject:

http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=273;start=0

...the short answer:  these sorts of counting systems make it MUCH easier to play changing meters, odd divisions, odd time signatures...adding this sort of knowledge to your drumming is like adding power steering to a car.

...IMHO...
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felix
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2002, 06:22 AM »

A typical day discussing East Indian Counting Systems here at the cafe-

James, "Ta ke ta ra ka ta."

Bart, "Raka taka tiki ta?"

James, "No, ra ka tiki ta ta TA TA!"

Bart, "Ok, ta riki tiki tavo"
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Sonor, The Drummers Drum
jameswalker
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2002, 08:18 AM »

OK, here's my rant on Indian syllables and counting...smoke 'em if you got 'em (except for Felix, of course!)

There are many different ways to count rhythms and divisions.  Bart and I recommend learning Indian syllables, used to teach (for example) tabla (North India) or mridangam (South India) playing.  In those traditions, the syllables represent the sound of certain finger or hand techniques on the drum:  "ta" is a high-pitched sound on tabla, "Dun" is a low pitched sound, "tet-te" ("tet-tay") is two muffled notes in a row, etc.  The idea is that one learns new rhythmic patterns and cycles by singing these syllables, and once one can sing these patterns, it's much easier to play them.

Even tho the sounds of the syllables don't apply to the drum set directly (altho some have done work in this area), the syllables can be used to count rhythms, and since these syllables are designed to be spoken - and spoken quickly - they work far better ("in my not so humble opinion) than the makeshift English words and syllables most of us were taught - saying "hippopotamus" to count fives, or "eat your (gosh darned) spinach" (edited for this family-friendly board!) to sing "three against four."  These bastardized applications of these words have their limitations, tho - and I think they're far less effective.

One doesn't need to become a tabla or mridangam virtuoso in order to benefit from using these syllables.  I'm probably the world's worst tabla player (well, I can think of one worse - the non-percussion-major pictured in the student newspaper of my old University fifteen years ago, playing his tabla like bongo drums - ick), but the rhythmic concepts I learned have informed my other percussion work, from jazz to classical to...whatever.

Some suggested syllables or syllable combinations for counting common divisions of the beat:

2 divisions (i.e., "eighth notes"):  "ta-ke" or "ta-ka"
3 divisions:  "ta-ke-ta"
4 divisions:  "te-re-ket-ta"
5 divisions:  "ta-ke ta-ke-ta" (2+3), or "ta-ke-ta ta-ke" (3+2)
6 divisions:  "ta-ke-ta ta-ke-ta" (3+3), or "ta-ke te-re ket-ta" (2+2+2)
7 divisions:  "ta-ket-ta ta-ke-di-mi" (3+4), or "ta-ke-di-mi ta-ke-ta" (4+3)
8 divisions:  "te-re-ke-ta te-re-ke-ta"
9 divisions:  "ta-ke-ta ta-ke-ta ta-ke-ta" (3+3+3)

I'll bet you my house that I can say "ta-ke ta-ke-ta" faster than you can say "hippopotamus" (while still being understood) to count fives.

Break things down into groupings of 2's and 3's, and you can evenly count elevens, thirteens, seventeens...can King Crimson be far behind?  Wink  And what's great about this is, you can practice it away from your drums...and when you walk down the street mumbling "ta-ke-te-re-ke-ta" (etc.), people leave you alone...
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jameswalker
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2002, 08:27 AM »

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BO733
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2002, 04:17 PM »

walkie talkie clocki ticki tocki. This is fun stuff. I think the internalization of the syllables really helps to play in different meters. This is great stuff.

-- Bob Moses has a great book in which he describes  bars of music with a swan flying overhead, symbolizing polyrhythmic ideas:

                      ~`~`~`~`~`                          
                      |1234||1234|   (kind of)

---In the book the swan lifts the wings and then drops them in a motion all above the bars.

The idea is just what Jim is talking about -- subdividing and internalizing so that it's a natural thing to do -- the attempt to make it whole and well, natural.

ta ta!!
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rlhubley
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2002, 10:13 AM »

2 words: DALCROZE EURYTHMICS
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rlhubley
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2002, 11:40 AM »

Dalcroze -a man
 
Eurythmics- webster defines as: the art of harmonious bodily movement especially through expressive timed movements in response to improvised music

Dalcroze beleived that the only way to understand rhythm was to feel it through your whole body movement.  Basically(for our purposes), the way it works it to walk one rhythm(or pulse) and clap another rhythm.  For example, walk around and count your steps as eighth notes.  ONce you are comfortable doing that, clap triplets on top of it.  It won't take too long before you are able to clap the polyrhythm 3:4.   What this does is force you to really feel the time.  You will know if you aren't walking in time immediatly, it won't feel smooth anymore.  
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felix
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2002, 11:44 AM »

Yeah, make sure you are chewing gum when practicing all the above for extra added element of independence.

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BO733
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2002, 12:31 PM »

Now I have so many things to try and learn. I understand what you're talking about Ratamatatt. James's explanation was great too. And the whole thing about walking in time -- i.e. the Delcroze Eurythmics. That is awesome. And seriously I do play rhythms with my teeth. I know it sounds silly, but it's true. I can click my teeth kind of in a circular fashion and create rhythms.

And i will try the gum. Nicorette, probably. It's a great way to start. Pretty soon I'll try the patch and then finally I'll be smoking, clicking, talking, patting my belly and scratching interesting new grooves; and then they'll take me far far far away....

Thanks guys!! (not to exclude the gals)
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