|
Alexander
Guest
|
 |
« on: May 08, 2004, 05:36 PM » |
|
Just got the Dave Weckl DVD 'How to develop technique' and well it certainly does what is says on the tin.
The rebound you get with a fiddle finger fulcrum feels so much smoother than a first finger and as Dave says 'it's a more natural approach's, couldn't agree more.
I know Dave didn't invent this before we get into that and if you check out Dom Famularo's cyber lessons with Jim Chapin you'll see him use a similar grip to demonstrate Moeller, it was friggin poetry in motion.
Not to say one grip is better than another but just another tool in the armoury. Love Freddie Grubers cameo aka the godfather, 'and so I said to the guy' classic, check it out.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
staringelf
Guest
|
|
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2004, 03:46 AM » |
|
yeah I love freddies bit where he nearly bursts out laughing when he says "some guys come to left, some guys come to the right"...genius.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Hammertown Drummer
Silver Member
 Offline
Posts: 478
|
|
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2004, 06:48 AM » |
|
more important than how much quicker you'll be(and you may have already noticed this) is how much bigger your whole kit will sound with this grip and your groove will improve
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I never stop learning new things.....but it keeps getting easier!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Jon E
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
 Online
Posts: 2817
This just in.....
|
|
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2004, 07:23 AM » |
|
....how much bigger your whole kit will sound with this grip and your groove will improve
I can maybe accept the "groove" part of this statement, but have a REAL hard time with the "bigger sound" part. Obviously we all need to use the technique that works best for us in any given situation. MY grip can change back and forth between these two (and others) as needed. None of these grips make my DRUMS sound better. My Playing, maybe--but not my kit. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
moosetication
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 1477
one ... two ... one two three four
|
|
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2004, 07:25 AM » |
|
more important ... is how much bigger your whole kit will sound with this grip and your groove will improve Seriously? I have a lot of time for that grip because it improves my relaxation (so I guess it might influence the groove), but I'm struggling bigtime with the notion that a grip can be responsible for making the kit sound "bigger". How so? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. Aldous Huxley
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 8589
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2004, 07:58 AM » |
|
I am so sick of hearing about this "new grip". If anything, it's going to make your drums sound "jazzier". Definitely not the "slugger" grip of my choice. I challenge anyone who says they can get more power from fisting or at least more playable power grip/the second joint fulcrum on your index finger.
And who really thinks about fulcrums when playing anyways? I think everyone's hands are different. Yes I learned proper moeller technique and different orchestral snare technique as well as solid rock technique. But this middle finger fulcrum thing, I think, is kinda hyped.
It's not Weckle's new grip that kicks, it's Dave Weckle that kicks.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
Tony
supporter
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 2177
Art is the expression of the self.
|
|
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2004, 08:49 AM » |
|
I challenge anyone who says they can get more power from fisting or at least more playable power grip/the second joint fulcrum on your index finger.
So Felix, do you know much about fisting?  Seriously, does grip make that much of a difference, or is it the psychological impact that learning something new has on a player? Something I've often pondered. I have this video and I have learned from it, but I'm not going switch to this grip, even if Weckl and Peart have both redefined their entire playing style for it. It's just not comfortable to me. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation. Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.
|
|
|
Hammertown Drummer
Silver Member
Offline
Posts: 478
|
|
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2004, 09:22 AM » |
|
ok....a challenge on sound. take your old technique hit your floor tom(or any tom) listen to the tone, now take the most relaxed grip you can DO NOT impede the rebound let it happen naturally and listen to the tone....if you do it right the drums will sound bigger and more resonant. In fact Weckl demonstrates this on that tape, he says that it happens and all of my students have noticed the difference......anyways just a challenge go ahead and try it. Also this of course has to be done on a non-muffled kit.....I'm not sure it would make a difference on a highly muffled tom. Try it and lets hear your thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I never stop learning new things.....but it keeps getting easier!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 3461
|
|
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2004, 01:02 PM » |
|
It's not Weckle's new grip that kicks, it's Dave Weckle that kicks.
Truth: Dave Weckl kicks If: A. Mr. Weckl's "new" grip (I've seen this for a while) is influenced in any way by one or more of his hands (definable as "part of Mr. Weckl"), and B. Such a grip, controlled by "part of Mr. Weckl" is allowing clear representation in whole or in part of the abilities that qualify Mr. Weckl as "kicking", then It is henceforth agreeable to refer to Mr. Weckl's grip as "kicking", at least in part, by virtue of Mr. Weckl's direct influence as defined above. Failure to recognize such shall result of a penalty involving the exclusive use of "Drum Brushes" by the offender at the offender's gigs for a period of not more than sixty (60) days. So-called "Jazz-Swinging and Sounds" are to be heavily encouraged at the supervising officer's discretion. Respectfully; Joe Kristanalufskawitz Legal Analyst, International Recorder of Rhythm Energy Language Ergonomics, Values, Applications, Notations and Traditions (I.R.R.E.L.E.V.A.N.T); Boutros Boutros "Bam Bam" Agogo, Chairman. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
Greg
Guest
|
|
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2004, 03:31 PM » |
|
Legal Analyst, International Recorder of Rhythm Energy Language Ergonomics, Values, Applications, Notations and Traditions (I.R.R.E.L.E.V.A.N.T); Boutros Boutros "Bam Bam" Agogo, Chairman.
LMAO! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
topleywonder
Guest
|
|
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2004, 06:38 PM » |
|
Nicely said Joe, the name that is.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Plowboy
Guest
|
|
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2004, 08:23 AM » |
|
There is nothing new about this technique. Joe Morello has been playing this way for years. And the natural rebound was taught to him by Billy Gladstone.
Freddie Gruber = genius? I think not. If anything he is about 60 years behind the late Mr. Gladstone.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
felix
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 8589
first class all the way :-)
|
|
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2004, 09:26 AM » |
|
ok....a challenge on sound. take your old technique hit your floor tom(or any tom) listen to the tone, now take the most relaxed grip you can DO NOT impede the rebound let it happen naturally and listen to the tone....if you do it right the drums will sound bigger and more resonant. In fact Weckl demonstrates this on that tape, he says that it happens and all of my students have noticed the difference......anyways just a challenge go ahead and try it. Also this of course has to be done on a non-muffled kit.....I'm not sure it would make a difference on a highly muffled tom. Try it and lets hear your thoughts.
I agree that you will get a full round tone with this playing technique and I understand where you are coming from with this statement. I do like to play this style (although not necessarily with the "middle finger fulcrum" since I prefer the combined first joints of the index and middle finger) when I have quiet gigs. But for the "maximum sound" you won't get a better tone flailing on your drums but it will be "bigger" when you take into account sympathetic vibrations and resonances in relation to room acoustics and sound pressure. Great point Hammertown! Is louder bigger? To a point. It gets difficult to maintain great tone as the volume increases. I will agree to that. Will that technique *middle finger moeller* translate well into real world larger venues and miked situations? I think a good drummer is going to have good tone and a good mix with their strengths in line with their style- technique perhaps being a byproduct of that, perhaps not. Bonzo had terrible looking hands, but he sounded great. I thought Neil Peart's sound on "Moving Pictures" was tremendous- I doubt if he had even heard of Freddy Gruber at that point in his career. Good point, glad u challenged me. We have not talked about this in a long time. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Sonor, The Drummers Drum
|
|
|
|
Mongrel
Guest
|
|
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2004, 11:02 AM » |
|
Can any of you guys direct me to some pictures of what this grip is?
I'm not really that familiar with the specifics you are talking about and I can't afford the DVD at the moment. A nice clear shot of this grip would be a help.
Thanks in advance...
Mongrel
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Hammertown Drummer
Silver Member
Offline
Posts: 478
|
|
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2004, 01:21 PM » |
|
just to clarify...I'm not really speaking of a middle finger fulcrum, but a natural unimpeded rebound of the stick. I use the middle finger fulcrum for most of my playing but when I really need to slam out a hard rock tune I change my fulcrum point. No matter what though I always use a natural rebound.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I never stop learning new things.....but it keeps getting easier!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
boomka
Cafe VIP
Gold Member
Online
Posts: 660
|
|
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2004, 03:21 PM » |
|
There is nothing new about this technique. Joe Morello has been playing this way for years. And the natural rebound was taught to him by Billy Gladstone.
Freddie Gruber = genius? I think not. If anything he is about 60 years behind the late Mr. Gladstone.
Does it really matter in the end? The fact that many drummers are getting turned on to (or at least exposed to and thus able to choose) this useful and (as far as I'm personally concerned) superior technique is wonderful Even Moeller claimed to have developed his technique from watching parade drummers play. Perhaps we could declare him a biter; post-humously, that is? It's all well and good that Billy Gladstone came up with some lovely techniques. But unfortunately, for obvious reasons, none of us will be able to study with him any time soon. The fact that this technique is being taught today, and is helping drummers as good as Weckl and Peart TODAY is what is key. To me, the technique is the important thing, not who we attribute it to. What difference does it make who 'invented' it? Sure, it's good to give credit where it's due, but it's easy to slip into preserving the memory of a person rather than the work they did, which lives on past their deaths. The technique (no matter who teaches it) helps many drummers play better, and to find and define their own style. In so doing, they may not only find ways to improve upon this technique (or at least in how they incorporate it into their playing) but may create new and interesting hybrids that will further enhance the scope of available techniques for all of us. Hey, I've got all the respect in the world for George Lawrence Stone, Billy Gladstone, Sanford Moeller, and all the rest. But I play here, now, today. I need to bang out something that works today. Great guys, I'm sure, but it's their technique that matters. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
In lumine lucem
|
|
|
Hammertown Drummer
Silver Member
Offline
Posts: 478
|
|
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2004, 06:45 AM » |
|
thank you boomka
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I never stop learning new things.....but it keeps getting easier!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
kolp
Guest
|
|
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2004, 08:19 AM » |
|
Can any of you guys direct me to some pictures of what this grip is?
I'm not really that familiar with the specifics you are talking about and I can't afford the DVD at the moment. A nice clear shot of this grip would be a help.
Thanks in advance...
Mongrel
I just take 3 pics from Dave DVD but how to upload pics here ? About this thread I think you confuse new grip and let the stick bounce which Jim Chapin already need to alow the stick to rebound to have Moeller triplet no ? , and Jim was Dave teacher so normaly reboud should be already explain more by Dave in his first Back to Basic VHS  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Mister Acrolite
Sous Chef
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 5556
Mr. Sensitive
|
|
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2004, 08:30 AM » |
|
I just take 3 pics from Dave DVD but how to upload pics here ?
The pic needs to live somewhere on the web - either on your own web site, or one of the many photo-hosting web sites available. Then you post a link to it here, surrounding the address with these Image tags, like this: [img]www.mygroovyphoto.com/mydrums.jpg[/img] |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I just found out most of the recordings I'm on were actually played by Bernard Purdie. my drummerworld page |
|
|
|
kolp
Guest
|
|
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2004, 10:35 AM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
