DRUMMER CAFE

Hopefully nobody.

(Sorry.  Just my instant response).

I think the WFD is a waste and silly.

Hi,

With the drumometer, is it split into a left and right counter so it only records stokes that are r / l / r/ l excluding rr or ll otherwise wouldnt it be easy to slip in the odd double to get your " socre" higher than the real  single stroke score you could get??

beece

Fair enough, dogxray. I do see the 'interest' in it - kind of like I see the 'interest' in seeing the biggest muscles, the hairiest woman, etc. But it just seems like a bit of a freak show.

MY concern is that a lot of young drummers (and this is who the D-o-M is largely marketed at) will get caught up in creating 'speed' rather than developing their musical talents - their listening/accompaniament skills, their rhythmic/harmonic/melodic thinking. I remember more than one of my early teachers remarking on young players' "need for speed". One mentioned how he had to go back and re-learn everything at around age 30 because he had spent his youth trying to play everything *fast* and had actually ended up hindering his own overall musical and drumming development. I took that to heart and tried to avoid that pitfall.

Sprinters don't usually run long-distances well, nor do they necessarily make good dancers, painters, or conversationalists. As drummers, I think we need to have aspects of all of these, and my fear is that too much attention being given to 'BPMs' will result in lopsided development for many young players.


Again, a metronome is plenty. It has the advantage of maintaining the musical context of 'speed' by making the notes played part of a musical vocabulary of subdivisions in 'musical time' - 8ths, 16ths, 15's, 7's.

And if one really needs to know how many BPM they are playing, some basic math skills (it never hurts to work the left side of the brain) will do the trick.

Does this thread come up every year?

I know a couple of drummers who have competed.  They are most definitely much more than "speed freaks".

Pursuing speed does not mean you forsake all other aspects of drumming, so perhaps people should stop stereotyping others, drop the sarcasm and instead provide encouragement when people ask questions.

One thing this type of competition does that I appreciate, is it sets a bar as to how fast certain things can be done.  From there, others can measure their own abilities (regardless of whether or not they are trying to compete).  This of course insn't necessary becuase most drummers have access by millions of songs to refer to (in the style they play) as a measuring stick.  But still, it answers questions for some.

The pursuit of extreme speed has also contributed to many advancements in hardware as well as technique.

I suspect this is aimed at me. I didn't say that everyone who uses these things is a 'speed freak'. I at no point made any generalising 'stereotyping' statement about the people who use the Drumometer. I did say that I think that 'speed competitions' are a freak show, but that doesn't go to the musicality of specific competitors. I think the competitions ARE just a curiousity - like the strongman at a fair and should be considered in the same light as, say, food-eating competitions.

My primary fear is -- I said above -- that "too much attention being given to 'BPMs' will result in lopsided development for many young players." I'm not suggesting that young players should not be interested in playing fast. I'm not even suggesting that trying to play fast necessarily results in an unbalanced approach. I am saying that it is my opinion that it is necessary to practice (and encourage as a teacher) a balanced approach to the instrument. I am saying that as much (or more) time and energy ought to be spent on developing listening/accompaniament skills, and rhythmic and melodic phrasing. 'Feel' will get you more gigs than chops.  

If what you say about your friends is true, then I wasn't speaking about them. I was speaking about many young drummers (some of whom I have taught or had contact with) who are already enamoured with speed. I'm talking about those young players who (like I used to) tend to over-emphasise speed and chops as opposed to control, accuracy and, above ALL, feel.

I also suggested that instead of focussing on 'beats per minute', that a metronome (and a little math) could provide the same service as the Drumometer while keeping the 'speed' within a musical context. Machine-gun like blasts of single-strokes have limited function if they are not comprised of subdivisions of musical/cultural time. I'm talking 'tempos' not 'speeds'. You see what I mean?
 


Agreed. I'm not saying that speed is not an important aspect of drumming technique. I'm only saying that it is likely that without the proper context and guidance many young players will forsake other important aspects of drumming and musicianship in "the pursuit of extreme speed."  

Alright very good points from all of you.  I appreciate your input.  I purposely did not elaborate on my initial post, because I wanted to get everyones gut reaction to this new "sport" drumming cult or whatever you want to call it.

But now here are my thoughts on this:
First of all, if speed were the only thing that I was looking for in drums, then so be it.  If in fact this was the only thing I wanted to get out of the drums, well thats my prerogative or exclusive right.  If I were a beginner on the drums I would expect my teacher or fellow drummers not to snear or be upset because of all those negative implications you guys mentioned, but rather encouragement as well as suggestions on the other awesome aspects of the drums.  Every drummer is different from each other because there are certain aspects that they each train on more than the other, and this brings character to their own style.  Though I might be limiting myself from the infinite other possiblities which the drums have to offer such as dynamics and musicality, this speed drumming happens to be one aspect that I'm specifically interested in.

Now as far as the "balanced approach" on the drums.  I fully agree.  The best drummers know how to do it all, and can adapt to any kind of music thrown at them.  Unfortunately whenever the word "speed" shows up in a topic, the first things that come to mind of a well trained drummer is "When are these people gonna stop looking for shortcuts when more practice will always be the answer".

But since my initial post was simply an interest in the drumometer.  I sort of let you guys ASSUME away, and assume away you did.  Fortunately, for me I have all the rudiments down.  I've gone through Georgle Lawrence Stone's book several times, and still counting.  Practicing is fun for me.  Since I don't have a drumometer I actually have been practicing fast singles with a metronome.  I have already noticed a difference in how smooth my playing is getting.  The ostinatos are just streaming out effortlessly now that I've been building my fingers up.  

And this leads me into my next point about improving your speed beyond your normal threshold.  Someone might say that if all you practiced was speed, then your technique will suffer.  This maybe so if it applied to the whole drumset every time you practiced.  However with the drumometer and single strokes, it is just common sense that you will never be able to get faster unless your technique improves.  Faster strokes can only happen when the stick height becomes lower, and each stick rebounds up to the same height, and the hands and fingers are working together very delicately yet very controlled.  So basically what happens is that you eventually meet up with much better technique whether you want to or not, if your seeing improvements in your speed.  

I am obviously all about the WFD, and the fun and excitement of that avenue of drums just as much as the next person who might be just as excited playing paradiddle permutations.  I think that this aspect of drumming unfortunately has a bad wrap.  And it's all the very experienced drummers who snear at it instead of looking for ways that it can be used usefully for the student to improve everything.  I think that everyone that sees it with this black cloud hovering over it should think twice about how useful it can be.  Go to the WFD website watch all the videos there.  Read Art Verdi's opinions on the Drumometer here: http://www.artverdi.com/
I don't work for them nor do I even own a drumometer, but I'm very interested in it and it potential as a measuring device.  I've heard it's like  a video game, and you get addicted and you want to go for higher scores everytime.  I don't know about you but this sounds like great incentive to want to practice even more!  Show me any body who can do 900 - 1000 strokes a minute with absolutely horrible technique and I'll be extremely surprised.  But, I know you won't find anybody.

Now, I do not entirely disagree with some of the people who think it can be harmful.  If your a new student to the drums and do not have a drum instructor who can guide your technique, then I would not suggest playing fast as you can to obtain better technique.  Great technique should be honed by guidance of a great teacher, and then the student can further hone this technique with speed.

Since none of us are in a position to stop anyone from using the Drumometer, the invocation of one's "rights" is a little bit of a rhetorical flourish, wouldn't you say?
"Perogative" will do just fine.  We are talking about preferences among a group of permissable choices.  


I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not sneering, nor am I upset. As to your second point - I think the drums are awesome, but that doesn't preclude my opinion about the Drumometer, nor about the pursuit of speed for speed's sake in regard to drumming technique.



No one here made that argument. You're building strawmen and kicking them down with great aplomb, though.



Could you please point to the post where any assumptions were made about you personally? I can't seem to find one. Anyway, it's great that you are working on your chops. Stone's book is a great resource. What I'm curious about is this: if you are having so much success building your speed with a metronome, why do you need a Drumometer? What is the advantage. I note that no one on this thread taking an affirmative stance on this device has addressed my suggestion that a metronome (and a little math) is every bit as good for developing speed and has the added advantage of developing that speed within the context of 'musical time', I.e. rhythm.


A couple of objections. First, no one here has made the argument that practising for speed will destroy your technique. It's all about how and what you practice. I've seen guys play very fast with inefficient technique. For whatever reason, they've been endowed with a preponderance of fast-twitch muscle in the right places and can blast away at great speed with little efficiency. Ever hear of Dave Weckl? You know, wicked fast drummer who blew people away with his speed and accuracy when he came on the scene 20 years ago? He just revamped his entire technical approach. Why? Because despite all his accomplishments, he was not playing technically as well as he can now.

Another problem arises with 'speed' even in the case of single strokes. When we talk about 'even-ness' in singles, we are talking about even subdivisions between notes against a particular tempo or meter. So if I hear that you can play, say, 800 BPM on your Drumometer, who's to say those 800 notes were evenly subdivided?


You still haven't shown me why it is any more useful than a metronome. And even if it can be shown that it is at least as good (or even better) than a metronome for developing overall speed, this doesn't go to the main thrust of my point which is that speed is pointless if it isn't contained within a musical context. So even if I do improve my speed with a DoM, I'm still going to have to sit down with a metronome to learn to make my strokes even and consistent in tempo. There is qualitative difference between  playing at 'a speed' and at 'a tempo'.



Art and I have different opinions. His may have something to do with trying to sell those little gadgets....


Fine, but what are you practicing? And how does it improve upon the old technique of flipping on the metronome and playing - for instance - Stone/Morello's Table of Time at 100 BPM?

Try those twelves at that tempo. And keep 'em even. You'll need good technique for that, too, but while you're learning to do this, you'll be learning about the relationships between rhythmic subdivisions in tempo (10s and 11s always stump me). and moving between them which aids with feel, time and finding one's way through complex rhythmic and metric structures.

So, in essence, why should I fork out the dough for this thing when I can simply take whatever metronomic tempo I'm playing at and divide it by 60 to get the number of beats-per-second and then multiply that by number of notes in the subdivision I'm playing (four per beat in a sixteenth-note grouping) and determine how many BPMs I'm playing at?

Meanwhile, I'm learning to play notes with rhythmic integrity in tempo.

I can see that happening. I think everyone would be curious as to the speed they have reached in single stroke rolls.

I can't help but sense a slight bit of a disconcerting tone.  When your looking for fault in the semantics of my writting.   I can't help but realize that you must have a pretty strong opinion on this subject, otherwise you wouldn't have taken the time to quote so much of my previous post, combing through all my words with a clear purpose to find inconsistencies, lowering my integrity.  It works especially great when you juxtapose this type of breaking down with your own counter arguments.   Actually I didn't mind this at all.  Your raised very good points and gave me a lot of things to think about.  A lot of the stuff I was saying I admit was not well thought out.  But it also makes posting here that much more fun.  Because now we get to think before we just start blowing air.


Now if I said "Boomka was sneering and upset at me" somewhere in my post I aplogize.  I was making a general statement based on opinions of drummer friends and also other posts I've read on it.  So, I apologize then since it must of sounded like I was talking directly to you.  So I see that I need to back general statements with the strong facts and evidence or perhaps not even make them at all.  I sneer at myself for assuming general sneeriosity  .


This statistical facts like this works great for those that place importance in them without really digging into them.  Fortunately I think people might finally be catching onto the fact that statistics can be twisted to fit something that looks quite appealing or quite negative.  This doesn't mean at all that they're not true.  But stating that no one on this thread was taking an affirmative stance really doesn't mean much to me if none of these people have experience with this device or own one themselves.  Now it appears that bongo, who owns one, left a nice post advocating its usefulness along with good points after your post.  
So now, heres the statistics I think are important:
1 : 1 for persons owning the device and also satisfied with it.
So far thats a pretty good ratio, or 100%.  I'm still waiting for posts from people that own one and are dissatisfied.


I don't doubt that these guys had poor technique and were still able to play very fast.  Before you read my next point, as hard as it might be just take away all personal opinions with regard to WFD or speed drumming.  Were these "guys" you speak of able to play 900-1000 beats in one minute?  Chances are they would never last at their top speed past 30 seconds if they had poor technique and were straining themselves.  Now I can't completely assume that they couldn't do that, I just really doubt it.  Give me a drumometer reading of 900+ on their speed for a whole minute and then I'll be a believer that that kind of speed can be obtained with poor technique.  I did make it clear at the end of my previous post that beginners should practice speed under the guidance of a well trained intructor so that technique does not get out of hand.  I'm not a beginner, or a teacher, so I'm not quite as concerned about its affects on a beginner.  This may be a perfect device to get once you've gotton your technique down and are ready to take it to a new level.  I am simply curious about this device, and I do feel like it would be beneficial tool as bongo has stated.


A very valid argument!  Why spend the money for a device when you could essencially reap the same benefits from a metronome while at the same time learning to make your subdivisions very even for the benefit of musicality.  Well if I thought the metronome was a completely useless tool, I would never purchase one.  But I believe there will be benefit gained beyond what the very dry metronome offers.  So I see it as a tool just like the metronome.  For example one very good excercise I learned that the drumometer can help you do that the metronome cannot as Art Verdi demonstrates on the WFD website is Flat Flams.  The drumometer will tell you if your hitting your sticks exactly together or not.  If you flat flam 10 times in a row you should expect the number "10" to show up on the drumometer and any number higher than that means that you were flamming instead and need to practice more control.  Though since the metronome will never be replaced and is obviously the best tool for drummers I would like to try using it in unison with a drumometer.  I think it would keep things interesting, and give me visual incentive to keep pushing it up a notch.  It's variety and uniqueness I think would provide a little more of a spice in each practice session.

Now obviously a lot of what I think about this device is opinion since of course I do not own one myself.  And even if I did own one, it would still be opinions.  But I plan on getting one sometime.  And I will post about how it has helped or hurt me.  I do think its worth investigating.

But besides boomka and myself, I still want to know peoples opinions of this device, especially from those who own one.