I don't plan on future competitions. I already got from it what I needed, and once you win you retire from competition. It's not like the professional bowlers tour.

But thanks for the high road.

I've never seen a WFD competitor and/or supporter start those nasty fights you see elsewhere. It always starts with speed jealousy trolls, groove cultists or Guitar Center spammers. Their tactic is to control a thread as soon as possible with dozens of one sentence personal slams, so as to shout down the discussion.

When this is successful then the next step is to accuse the WFD guys of being the trolls and spammers, while they pretend to get secret mesages from God that supposedly bring truth and light to a discussion they never wished to have happen in the first place.

Several months ago, a lot of us WFD participants got together and talked about stepping up by defending our points with as much reason as possible, but not letting the slams pass either. That's why the discussion has amped up more positively. It's a strategy that I think works towards the betterment of both sides. Besides I got tired of being lectured to by a number of players who I didn't think were all that skilled as either orators or musicians.

I mean honestly, if you are really that concerned about how we look to musicians of other persuasions, just let them them read those stupid WFD flame war threads. I've been in some of them, and they're not good for the image for sure.

Drumskillz, I will most likely be there (in Anaheim) as a guest. If Daniel Rice comes back, I think it will be between you or him. I know there are bunch of big talkers on blogs (amazingly all adult metal guys...not kids)talking about what they are going to do if they go, while posting unverifiable scores. But as we know most of that is what it is.

Well the truth is we are never going to solve this WFD issue; it has been going on here since July of 04, and it is 9 pages here. And this is one of the SHORTER discussions on the web. (and it is civil, we are good guys)
Even I had written a fairly decent post about it a few pages back on this thread (In reading I was surprised, because it is much better than I usually write so I had to check that I really was the author..... I must have had my green tea that day :-). {Umm...unlike this post below :-) }

Matt, from your postings I've read here and on some other forums, it is refresheing to see someone with such a good grasp on a lot of things that people much older than you miss.

Just a few points I'll make:

Regarding groove drummers; I can't speak for your experience where you live, you've probably encountered some of those folks who denigrate the WFD and hide behind the "groove thing."
I think we've all encountered players like that, but on what level? Chances are they can't play anyway no matter what they are trying to play, playing fast is just one more thing they can't do so they make fun of it. So, I would dismiss them as easily as I dismiss someone who is solely focused on increasing only their hand speed.

Also, in either case I doubt they are working, as drummers anyway.

If you read my post back earlier in this thread you'll see I neither condone or condemn the WFD, I'm not looking for part of that argument either. Rather than get into that, I'll give you my experiences in some real world situations around here.

First off, I live in New York City, like it or hate, it is still pretty much the place to see some of the worlds best players from any genre you can think of, all at most within 20 a minute subway or cab ride of each other.

The point being, that there a lot of people here that can play, "Groove master" or "chops master," if you can't play what the other musicians need, you don't work. The thing is, I've never heard any of the real working guys say anything about the WFD, nor do I see them worrying so much about their hands and how fast they go.

Why?
Well honestly, if you can play 1200 strokes per min, that is impressive, and there is no doubt it took a lot of hard work and deditcation to get there. But it is impressive mostly to other drummers.

However, if you can play 1200 S.P.M, keep great time, have great ears, play with dynamics, and make it groove (real musicians quickly uncover those who can't), and play stuff that works within the context of the music you will impress OTHER MUSICIANS and get gigs or be recommended for them by other musicians. Usually, you don't get gigs from other drummers (they may drop your name but they don't usually hire you).

From another angle, if Will Lee, Chuck Rainey, Tony Levin, David Hungate, Marcus Miller, Richard Bona or any of the great bass players out there were to rank a drummer on all the above, (plus reading and a few other things) I think the ability to play that many strokes per min. would be ranked last.
Lenny White, Billy Cobham and others had great chops/hands, but they could also do all the other stuff. Jurgen Denkenheimer had AMAZINGLY FAST hands but that was all he had going for him.

I'm not a full time musician here, I have a day job, but when my schedule allows it I do get get more immersed in the music scene so I have to audition just like the real guys, now & then I do land gigs, even with my humble skills. Thankfully, (or maybe luckily) I've had the privelege of playing with some great musicians over the years. 

As far as chops, I was just one of those folks who always had chops and I NEVER missed an opportunity to use them, but to be honest it wasn't until about 7 or 8 years ago when I stopped worrying about how to play like Weckl and Chambers and started trying to play like Porcaro, Keltner, Aronoff and Marotta that I started getting calls to play, as well as the occasional compliment.

For me, I think I can play fast enough (can't play speed metal though) and I have so many other holes in my playing that there are about 5 or 10 other things I should spend my practice time on before I need to increase my hand speed.

So, when I see Keith write that it "worries him" when he sees these drummers just concentrating on the speed aspect of things (which we know you don't). I say "great," less competition for me!

Too add to my already too long post:

This past Monday night I went to a small club (The Bitter End) and watched Jerry Marotta's band String Theory play a set at 9PM. At 10:30, The Oz Noy trio came on with Will Lee and Keith Carlock backing him. The access to this type of talent on a regular basis is probably the only major reason for me to still live in, and put up with NYC after all these years.

As you might expect, the crowd had more than its share of first call musicians there. (interestingly, it was not even a double bill, Oz just plays there a lot, and String Theory is working out some material)

The Jerry Marotta project was with 2 female singers, some kind of ethereal playing was required, some ballads and then some pretty high intensity playing.

For the most part JM was just playing time BUT the GROOVE and sound he gets out of his drums is truly amazing. He was playing a little Yamaha Hip Gig but it sounded huge. He has chops but he was truly playing for the song/songwriters. So if you were a drummer who only listens to Mike Mangini or Portnoy etc..(great drummers, I'm not slighting them) you might not appreciate or recognize what Marotta does so well (until you try to duplicate that sound). BUT if you were Keith Carlock, or Will Lee or any one of the other big time guys that were in the audience (plus me who isn't anybody) you "got" what he was doing and why what he was doing is was so great. Those guys were just all watching him and just nodding their heads digging his playing. That is the ultimate compliment to me.
 

"Groove specialists?" 

I don't understand what you mean by this term.

It has never occurred to me that "groove" (the ability to groove, and/or placing an emphasis on groove) would be considered a specialty.  On the contrary, it seems to me that "groove" (in its various forms) is a common denominator found in just about every genre of music, regardless of the number of notes involved, or the speed at which they're played.

I've never heard anyone refer to themselves as a "groove specialist."  What I have heard are drummers - and I'm one of them - who believe that a good groove is more important than just about any other element in music.  I don't understand how placing importance on a fundamental, universal aspect of drumming - and music in general - warrants one being branded a "specialist."

In defense of speed and the WFD:

If shear speed is not important, then why are the all the most reverend drummers so freaky fast? A lot of guys had the groove of Buddy Rich, but it was his speed that set him apart ... he was called the 'best in the world'.

A lot of guys can groove like Giovanni Hidalgo, but it is his supernatural speed that gets him called 'best conguero in the world'.

Gene Krupa,Tony Williams, Shelly Mann, Joe Morello, Max Roach, Louis Bellson, Billy Cobham, Jose Areas, Bill Ward, Mitch Mitchell, John Bonham, Danny Carey, the list goes on and on and they all play with groove and have very fast hands. They all proved themselves with their speed demon chops.

Speed is important because we make it important. The public wants to hear drummers go fast. Other drummers want to hear drummers go fast.

I'd go so far as to say a good drummer has to be able to play fast, has to be able to play fast in the context of music, and to that end, must build chops.  Hiding behind groove to cover a lack of chops doesn't cut it in my book. That's cool if you got the chops and choose not to use them, but you got to have the chops, or else you won't get much respect from me.

IMO, some of the best MUSIC is when the drummer cuts loose.

I'll stop you right there. Name one.

True, Buddy was fast, and often his drum solos would include a dazzling display of speed. But in accompanying songs and kicking a big band, Buddy was an amazing MUSICIAN - and one whose feel and sound are immediately identifiable. Listen to one of those Burning For Buddy CDs or videos, where literally the best drummers in the world play Buddy's charts with a big band. Then listen to a recording of Buddy himself playing those tunes, and tell me you don't hear the difference. And that difference is NOT simply speed.

I like that phrase. 

With all due respect, you have no idea what kinds of bands I've played in over the years.   

I think everyone has expressed the opinions on this very old thread (and topic).

No one is going to change anyone's mind obviously ... so let's do move on and talk about something else. The fellow who started this thread isn't even a member of this forum anymore!