id go with a simple brain like an alesis DM5.  plenty of sounds, easy to use, and fairly cheap.  then yeah, add a couple triggers.  nothing too fancy really.  the bottom end roland or pintech pads.  one as a second rack tom, one to the left of the hats, that kinda thing.  id also get some triggers for my acoustic drums.  especially the snare and kick.  you dont need to use them, but having those couple extra can come in handy.  

that way youll have the stand alone triggers for effects, off sounds and the like.  and the triggers on the acoustics to double them up, or change 'em.  (add some 808 kick to the chorus, that kinda thing)

#1 rule in electronic drumming: ebay is your friend.  

seriously, though, all the responses from before are pretty much on the money.  a basic, inexpensive module like the alesis DM5 or D4 not only have plenty useable sounds, they also work well as trigger-to-midi converters....allowing you to greatly expand your options.

Definately get a sampler!  I'm warning you, though, there's some serious learning curves ahead.  the best sampler for the money these days is a used akai s2000 or s3000 (I'm partial to the 2000), you should be able to get one for around $250.  learn it, use it, start triggering sounds from it via the alesis module.

a drum module, sampler, and some used pads should set you back something in the neighborhood of $500... also, make sure you get a good rack to put them in!  the new gator ones are a good value.  

best of luck.

D

Guys, thanks a lot for your input. You've given me a lot to think about. Can I run something by you? A friend of mine, a laptop musician, offered this input:

First, a trigger to midi convertor:

http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.ROLTMC6&z=1450389123940

then up to 6 triggers:

http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=b.DEP,00&z=1450389123940

then get a midi-usb convertor:

http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.THKMIMMS22&z=1450389123940

to a laptop.

Then, some software. Native Instruments' Battery is popular;

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?home_us


The upside of all this complexity is that it will be much easier to change kits and all that. Hardware samplers are really cumbersome when it comes to programming. The interface is a 16 character display and a few buttons. Also, manipulating and editing samples on a computer in something like Soundedit has all the groovy undo's and save-as's that you're used to in Photoshop land. Plus, I already own the most expensive bit of hardware.

For live work, I'd also add:

- a UPS (uninterrupted power supply - if some drunk trips over your extension cord and knocks out the power, you won't have to wait X-minutes to power the system up again)

- a power line conditioner - Furman, or the like - to avoid spikes running up the line.  You never know what you're going to get in a club.

It can certainly work, to base your setup around a laptop computer - there are guys all over the world doing this for live performance - but just make sure you address all the variables that one faces in live performance, especially in terms of the supply of electricity.

Also, does your friend have any thoughts regarding latency?  I don't know enough about soft synths to know if this would be a problem, but whever I see discussions of this sort of thing, that word, "latency," always rears its ugly head.

I'm biased - I don't trust computers enough to move my entire setup onto a hard drive (or drives), but I know that lots of folks have success with it.  I guess it's just the pessimistic New Englander in me.  

REally?!  How do you load the DM5 pro with your samples?  I like that idea.

Love this forum.

whoa.  STAY AWAY from usb triggering.  latency is unavoidable w/ USB...it's getting better as far as tracking interfaces are concerned (ie, digidesign Mbox), but i would not trust it w/ triggering technology.

in all truth I'd say stay away from using a laptop-based triggering system as your live rig.  There a reason why hardware hasn't been replaced by the ibook entirely-- they're a hell of a lot more dependable.  sure it's a pain to do all the editing on a 2x16 LCD screen... but you can interface w/ your computer at home and edit samples w/ a program like soundforge, recycle,  etc.  

I love my ibook, I love it's editing and interfacing capabilities (although I do wish it had a SCSI card)... but there's nothing that it can do that would make me even consider dumping my hardware for a live gig and just triggering that.  hardware is dedicated to doing what it does, and that's it... my sampler's memory isn't loaded up w/ microsoft word documents and the like.  

if you have a computer, definately involve it in your sound creation work; but for live triggering, I'd say stay w/ hardware.  

"Has anyone composed an Acid style sequence yet and had the band jam on it?"

ive used backing tracks for sure.  usually whatever ive done, be it recorded live in my studio or programmed (i use Buzz instead of acid) i mix it to minidisc and run that into an amp or pa.  works great if you can get the levels up and your bandmates have decent time.

there was a band called grotus who used to use a vcr for thier backing tracks, if you ever saw 'em live youd notice the lack of witty banter between songs ... that was because once the tape was rolling, it was rolling.  thats why i prefer cd or mini disc (sturdier for the road), easy to stop and cue if you need to.

I agree with Felix - this is a great topic.

There is, however, something I wonder about whenever I start to ponder using loops and sequences in performance (Bart, give a yell if you think this should be moved to another thread or another part of the Cafe):

I come from a jazz and classical background, and I've only gotten serious about electronic music and MIDI-related technologies in the past year or two.  Part of me is fascinated and excited at the opportunities that this technology offers:  loops, sequences, samples, the creation of sounds not possible with any acoustic instrument.  That part of me sees endless possibilities inherent in the technology (both in the reality and potential of the technology).  The idea of playing solo and sounding like a virtual orchestra is enticing, to say the least.

Then there's the uptight classical/jazz side of me...the side that tells me that if I'm not actually playing it - electronic, acoustic, whatever - that I'm making some sort of compromise in integrity.  Even if I can't define it exactly, this little nook of my brain tells me that there's something dishonest in playing along with sequences and loops.

What's the line?  Is it OK to perform over a drum machine?  Is it OK to perform accompanied by a fully-realized sequence, with "bass," "drum," "horn," and "keyboard" parts (etc.) preprogrammed in?  How much "real time" playing do I have to do to give the performance validity?  There's one extreme (playing everything in real time) and the other extreme (letting the sequencer do everything, while the performer just stands there looking suave and debonnaire), and I think it's fair to say that the "validity" line falls somewhere in-between.  Is it OK to play along with a simple loop of a "shaker" pattern, but not OK to play along with a sequence of a 17-piece big band chart, just soloing on vibes and playing the melody here and there?

I don't have the answers to these questions, and maybe I never will.  Part of me is unsettled by the "let the computer do it" option, but part of me is enticed by the "look what the computer can do!" side of the equation.

What do you folks think?  Where's the line?  What's acceptable to us as performers?  When does it become "cheating" - or does it ever amount to "cheating" at all?

Just wanted to comment on the earlier portion of the thread regarding triggers and laptops.

I'm in agreement with NOT using the USB, etc. I know I've said it before ... but I'll say it again ... I think using outboard gear as your triggering interface. My big thing is flexibility. This is why I went with the drumKAT. You can use whatever brand you like, but having a interface which allows you to play on pads OR triggers is great flexibility.

Then, via MIDI, you trigger the sounds you want; to a computer or sampler. Personally, I would never buy a sound module that didn't allow me to import sounds. This is why a sampler is so great because you have no limitations on sounds.

Yes ... all of this does cost a little more ... and so you may want to take James' earlier suggestions regarding what to get.

My belief has always been that I want the best money can buy ... and that I can afford. If I don't have the cash, I don't get it (what a concept huh?). And I don't buy something to "just get me by" unless I really like the product and plan on using it for a very long time. It's an investment ... so if you don't plan on keeping it for very long, you better make sure that it's a high enough quality to where you can resell it.

I really like the directions this topic is going in. You guys are so cool.

First -- I'm now investigating the Roland SPD-20 (link to PDF brochure). The KATS look great, but they're frankly out of my price range. Now, the SPD-20 looks like a really good deal to me because it has six pads and four trigger inputs. Cool. It also allows for the user to connect to and trigger external MIDI devices, such as sound modules or samplers. On paper (well, on PDF, really) it seems to answer all my requirements for immediate functionality and expandability. Now, does anyone have experience working with this instrument that they can share?

Second... as to playing along with rhythm loops. This is something I struggled with when I joined this band. Yeah, it seemed like we were cheating. The more I thought about it, though, I came to some realizations. First, the band's sound calls for dense, layered percussion -- more than I can play at once with only four limbs. So, maybe we should add a second drummer, right? I considered this, and realized that the second drummer would find himself in the position of having to play something like straight and even 16ths, occasionally triggering off something that backs me, but that it would an incredibly boring job. We're not prepared to have two drummers duking it out King Crimson double-trio style.

Anyone else have any insights into duets with machines?

Exactly! Right now our bass player (a fine musician and really good all-around guy, btw -- I frequently refer to him as Clip's John Paul Jones) keeps an mp3 player taped to his bass and starts all the songs from there. We've talked about this, and what he'd like is a system where I can trigger the intro, verse, chorus and outtro sequences from my drumkit, which is why it's crucial for me to get a system that will allow me to trigger samples -- in my case, the samples would probably be 1- or 2-minute long files.