Guy's Big Butt
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« on: July 14, 2004, 12:22 PM » |
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Lately while I've been trying to use more of a Moeller technique (which I practice by just using a hard practice pad, and use the thumb and middle finger as a fulcrum), i have also learned about practicing on pillows, which Dennis Chambers suggests....My question is, if I can get great speed with both methods, is it possible to somehow combine the two and if so, how?..It seems like it is two completley different ways of thinking.
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Jon E
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2004, 01:05 PM » |
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In the same way that practice pads and pillows have different feels, so do the the drums on most drumsets. Snare drums feel different than floor toms, mounted toms feel different than ride cymbals.
That being said, practice--regardless of the medium--is really just trying to master CONTROL of the sticks. Whether that be controlling the bounce from a SD or needing the control to lift the sticks off a loosely tuned floor tom.
Personally, I practice some on a Real Feel pad, some on a Moongel pad, and some on my drum set. All application, I feel, have their place.
It's all about having control regardless of what you play on.
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gobarr
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2004, 02:14 PM » |
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Jon E has it exactly right. Practicing on multiple surfaces will build rebound control. Just like Jon E said, all percussion surfaces do have different rebound qualities and therefore practicing on as many surfaces as possible will in fact prepare you for anything. There maybe a time in the future where you will play on someone elses kit, and the rebound qualities of their kit will definitely not be like the ones on your kit. So keep it up. Play on pillows, knees, stomachs, phone books, steering wheels, rubber pads, gel pads, and anything else you can find that you won't necessarily destroy. 
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MVanDoren1
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2004, 03:51 PM » |
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My kit at home is tuned completely different than the kit I play on at church. I like a higher pitched, tighter head on all my drums compared with the guy who tunes the churches kit. I'm about a quality of sound and tone that I LIKE. At the church they tune the kit to perfect 4th's and at a low pitch range at that. So at home I play on tight heads with great rebound snare/toms- all of them while at church they aren't dead in their response, but comparatively- they are  . Variety is CERTAINLY a good idea
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Plowboy
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2004, 05:38 AM » |
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I don't get it - developing control by practicing on a pillow? There is nothing to control. If anything, praticing on a pillow will help develop the wrists. The downside is that the pillow has almost no response thus forcing you to pull the sticks away from the pillow. Pulling the sticks away from away surface is something you want to avoid. In the end practicing on a pillow can lead to flawed technique.
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Jon E
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2004, 07:23 AM » |
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the pillow has almost no response thus forcing you to pull the sticks away from the pillow. ....praticing on a pillow will help develop the wrists Exactly. Wrist control is ANOTHER aspect drumming of which one needs to control. Pulling the sticks away from away surface is something you want to avoid. Not always. Sometimes this technique is Exacltly was is necessary to play an instrument. In the end practicing on a pillow can lead to flawed technique. SOLELY practicing on a pillow is a flawed technique (IMHO). But it has its place in MY practicing and teaching regimine.
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Plowboy
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2004, 12:43 PM » |
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Jon, I don't know who taught you technique, but the only time the stick should be pulled away from the surface is when going from an unaccented to accented note. You also might want to pull away slightly when playing stacatto notes. Otherwise that ain't the way to play. The rebound is always faster than the hand.
I also never said solely - but too much could cause the drummer to develop bad habits.
You want to develop wrist control? Practice on a surface like the actual drum or practice pad. Since there is very little response from the pillow, there is very little to control. Since the drum or pad has greater response there is more control of the stick is required.
Sure, your wrists might develop slightly but there are too many downsides to using a pillow.
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Jon E
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2004, 12:49 PM » |
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I guess you (and probabaly others) and I (and probably others) will have to agree to disagree on this.
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dizz
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2004, 03:43 PM » |
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IMHO
Pillows will strengthen your wrists, but I also think that pillows can end up flawing your technique. If you get into the habit of pillow response, I can assure you that you wont be hitting the straight up and down. If stick hits the drum straight down, it can only rebound straight back up (barring your hand getting in the way.) You wont get the kind of feedback you will need from a pillow.
I wouldnt go crazy practicing on pillows, but it can be a good exercise if you understand the mechanics of what should be happening.
"My question is, if I can get great speed with both methods, is it possible to somehow combine the two and if so, how?.."
The pillow deal is an exercise to strengthen wrists which might increase your speed -- The Moeller thing is a whole drumming philosophy
I think the more realistic question might be -if I can get great speed with both methods, is it possible to somehow transistion between the two ideas and if so, how.
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funkster
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2004, 08:52 PM » |
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When practicing on a pillow you will almost certainly be playing 'slower' than when playing on a pad or drum. Will practicing slowly help you build speed? I'm not sure.
Others may disagree, but it seems to me that the greatest speed can be attained when you use as much of the natural rebound as possible. I don't think practicing on a pillow will necessarily teach you this. You get fast by playing fast. That being said, I've had students who were so lazy that they wanted to play everything by letting the sticks flop around on the pad. They didn't want to do any work and couldn't play a decent double stroke roll, for example. They couldn't get their wrists moving fast enough to play 'wristed' double strokes which could smoothly transition to bounced double strokes. I have recommended that these students spend some time practicing on a soft surface, like a pillow. There are also times when you may have to play on very soft surfaces, like extremely loose floor toms, concert bass drums, rope tensioned field drums, etc., where natural rebound is minimal. In addition, if you're a percussionist playing marimba, vibraphone, xylophone, etc. rebound is limited as well, so you may have to do more of the work.
Just some random thoughts.........
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"Everything we do is music." - John Cage (1912-92)
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bongo
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2004, 09:02 AM » |
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In my opinion, controlled rebound should not be the only way a stick is brought back to the striking position.
Rebound is a valid technique and should be mastered, but learn the other way too. A deliberate stroke in and out that relies little on rebound can be developed with the help of a pillow and is valuable for speed and power.
Accenting on the SECOND beat of a double stroke gives the rudiment the momentum of a single stroke and if practiced so as not to be dependent on rebound, can be ripped out at high speed a foot and a half off the surface of the drum. Of course it is best to use what rebound there is and not stifle the energy. But my point is the rebound is not the primary way the stick is brought back; rather it is a combination of wrist and finger action, done in such a way it is all one motion that naturely ends back in the striking position.
Double strokes done this way blow away rebound based rolls for shear power, in my opinion.
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maestro
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2004, 09:10 AM » |
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Natural rebound vs. pillows?
I don't think it's a matter of one or the other. Practicing on a surface, like a pillow, with minimal rebound teaches your fingers to harness, controll, and get the most out of the rebound from the surfaces you normally play. I started practicing double strokes on a pillow and noticed a remarkable improvement in my overall playing. I now practice even moeller technique, tripple strokes, rudiments, etc, on a pillow. Every time I return to my kit to find more controll, speed and endurance. Just try it!
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felix
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2004, 07:35 AM » |
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I'm with Jon E. on this one. Practice on a variety of surfaces. You don't have to attack his technique Plowboy. I can roll on a frigging pillow sheet or burn on a rubber pad- being able to pull fast dbl's hard is essential if you wanna play them loud- everyone knows that. Well, I guess they do now. Dennis Chambers was a pillow practice freak- are you going to bag on his technique too?
When I'm playing "light" and "fast"- doubles/stickings and use of controlled rebound all come into play.
When I'm on my rock gig it's time to slam it home with low pitched tuning, big sticks and lots of wrist and hard pulled dbls.
I prefer my moongel pad on remo stand for what I call "strengthening" work outs.
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jokerjkny
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2004, 10:39 PM » |
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i dunno, to me, it still makes NO SENSE to practice on pillows to strengthen your wrists. sure, there are different surfaces, but a drum will still be a drum will still be a drum and NOT a pillow. and if it is, then you need to work on proper tuning.  proper stick technique is all about controlling and using rebound to your advantage. praticing on pillows only seems like it strengthens the wrist to be able to bring up your hands for the next strike of the drum. but why make more work for yourself with such an inefficient method? why not let the rebound do the work for you? to take an example from Dom Famularo, drumming isnt too different from playing basketball. as you learn how to dribble, you learn how to control the ball as it rebounds up from the floor. you dont see ballers throwing flat dead balls to the ground, lifting them off the floor to help their dribbling. same is true for drummers. all about the rebound and using the "the Free Stroke". seems like good control techniques like the FS get lost admist sheer drumming "wow" from the likes of many players who may not have the best technique that will most likely NOT be good for the rest of us. IMHO, your best bet is to learn on a practice pad, which up until this point in drumming history, is the best at mimicing a drumhead, and learning how to best control that rebound for a more efficient and less energy wasting technique.
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Jon E
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2004, 05:13 AM » |
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I'll put it simply.....
In my opinion 100% control of the stick is important. Whether one can control their sticks completely by controlling rebound, OR by playing completely using a non-rebound stroke, OR a combination of the two makes no difference. But I do feel that it is important to be able to do both, because in MY playing career I have called upon to employ both methods.
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gobarr
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2004, 06:00 AM » |
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Heal up or heal down, traditional or matched, Moeller or free Stroke, pillows or practice pads --- Don't know if you can say one is better than the other. Learn them all and then make your decisions. Or better yet take the best part of them all and fuse them together into your own style.
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Mister Acrolite
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2004, 06:05 AM » |
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I'll put it simply.....
In my opinion 100% control of the stick is important. Whether one can control their sticks completely by controlling rebound, OR by playing completely using a non-rebound stroke, OR a combination of the two makes no difference. But I do feel that it is important to be able to do both, because in MY playing career I have called upon to employ both methods.
I'm with Jon E on this - I put a lot of work into learning to play doubles without relying on rebound. Most of the rudimental guys I've hung with can play a blistering double-stroke roll on ANY surface: drum, practice pad, pillow, bed, thigh - whatever's handy. I've found that the strength and articulation you develop by working on this skill can really heighten your chops. An aside: Am I the only guy with areas on the tops of his thighs that are impervious to pain after years of using them as impromptu practice pads? 
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Chris -
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2004, 06:30 AM » |
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I practice on concrete with metal sticks. I play until I have no feeling in my hands. LOL
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What should I choose - Moller/Free Stroke; Heel up/down: Zildjian/Sabian; DW/Ludwig; Peart/Gadd? Oh @*$^#&, I should have played guitar!
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Jon E
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2004, 06:48 AM » |
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I practice on concrete with metal sticks. Me too! I also practice a large pile of cotton balls using slinkys!!
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Chris -
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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2004, 08:03 AM » |
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I like the tingling sensation in my arms.
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What should I choose - Moller/Free Stroke; Heel up/down: Zildjian/Sabian; DW/Ludwig; Peart/Gadd? Oh @*$^#&, I should have played guitar!
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