Chris Whitten
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« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2004, 12:54 AM » |
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Because we're discussing musicians with some pop noteriety. And since they are both musicians with some pop noteriety they are discussed together.
Just to clarify the Eminem point........... I brought it up (in passing) because Todd was rapping on one of his new songs. It's OK to experiment, but sometimes more successful to play to ones strengths. Rapping is not one of Todd's strong suits IMHO (ever hear a sports star or celebrity rapping on a cheesy record?). Anyway, it seemed 'The Drumulator' was more interested in defending Rundgren than debating the thread....................so there you go.  |
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felix
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Y no keno!
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« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2004, 07:23 AM » |
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I wish I could like to spend about a few days listening to 563's cd collection.
"The ego has landed"- funny one. LOL
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Yaay!
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hippie
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« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2004, 11:01 AM » |
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I wish I could like to spend about a few days listening to 563's cd collection.
I think it would take more than a few days  |
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563
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« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2004, 12:05 PM » |
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I wish I could like to spend about a few days listening to 563's cd collection.
"The ego has landed"- funny one. LOL
Ill put together a list. Yall can check samples online  |
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Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland |
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PaulDperc
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« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2004, 12:22 PM » |
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Maybe...ummmm...SANTANA...? He still plays well and won Grammys with his Supernatural album and never won any when he was young. IMO their first 3 albums were the best, but...not a grammy for any of them. Your thoughts? |
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563
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« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2004, 03:14 PM » |
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Maybe...ummmm...SANTANA...? He still plays well and won Grammys with his Supernatural album and never won any when he was young. IMO their first 3 albums were the best, but...not a grammy for any of them. Your thoughts? Dont read this as a judgement on his music, but as an honest question ... Has his music evolved? Or is he playing essentially the same stuff he always has? Im not a huge fan of his stuff, so my perspective is pretty broad. And from that perspective, it doesnt seem hes changed much. Not always a bad thing, doing what you do well is good (which is how I view Santana). But part of my feelings on the subject of quality music as you age, are about musical growth. |
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Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland |
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Scott(Sjm1112)
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« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2004, 10:36 PM » |
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Santana co-wrote those last couple of CD's with other artists. It might explain the sudden re-kindling of the creative juices.
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A good way to threaten somebody is to light a stick of dynamite. Then you call the guy and hold the burning fuse up to the phone. "Hear that?" you say. "That's dynamite, baby."
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2004, 02:09 AM » |
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I agree with both Paul and 563 on this.
The early Santana albums are the best. I think I proved the Grammy was not a reliable indicator earlier (where are you Christopher?).
I also think that although the last couple of Santana albums are probably an enjoyable listen (not my cup of tea either), I'm usually more impressed with some evidence of music growth.
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Christopher
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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2004, 08:48 AM » |
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I think I proved the Grammy was not a reliable indicator earlier (where are you Christopher?). Im here. Ive been loosely monitoring the thread. The Grammy and platinum record examples were used because they're something that we all have access to. I dont really know what type of music youre into, so its kind of hard to find a common ground that would justify my Plant, Sting and Clapton examples other than record sales, awards and such. To answer the original "cut it" question is kind of hard when we dont have much to use as a common barometer if those things are ripped out of the mix. As you know, music tastes differ greatly from person to person, so things that may rock the world to you may not be anothers cup of tea, and vise versa. I know that Plant and Stings newer stuff has been some of my recent favorites, but just saying that I like them doesnt really go far to proving the point. So, maybe a clearer definition of "cut it" may be in order. |
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"What one man can do, another can do."
-Charles Morse (Anthony Hopkin's character from the 1997 movie, The Edge)
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2004, 11:46 AM » |
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Cool.  I'm actually trying not to base this on my personal opinion. Apart from anything else, there are plenty of currently cool bands I respect for what they are doing, but would never want to own one of their records. I guess you just know if someone is coasting or no longer pushing the envelope. I admit the perspective gets skewed looking at things from across the Atlantic (the UK scene is much more trendy and fickle than the US). For example, The Dave Matthews Band seem to be cool Stateside, but they mean diddly in Europe. Anyway, I wasn't attacking your personal taste re: Sting, Clapton etc.....just questioning if they are still at the height of their powers. Maybe they are. Also, maybe a redefinition of 'cutting it' is in order.  |
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Scott(Sjm1112)
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« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2004, 10:19 PM » |
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After reading this entire well thought out thread (for the most part), I think I can take away from this the fact that everything is relative.
I'm sure the aforementioned artists don't need the money anymore so they must think they are still relavent and think they are growing as artists. Bottome line....its just like which is the better cymbal and which is the better drum, it's all in what the individual likes.
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A good way to threaten somebody is to light a stick of dynamite. Then you call the guy and hold the burning fuse up to the phone. "Hear that?" you say. "That's dynamite, baby."
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2004, 02:19 AM » |
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Could be............ |
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ClockworkOrange
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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2004, 04:14 AM » |
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Interesting topic.
There are a lot of factors that influence a persons musical development, artistically and creatively.
Early on, you have the angry young man effect on both writing and playing, the world influences you right here, right now and you have something to say about it.
Throw a 'trusted' partner into the mix, ala Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards, Page/Plant, Adams/Vallance, John/Taupin....once these relationships are 'damaged' it's game over for the chemistry that was.
The industry itself. Maybe, being given early 'guidance' is a good thing, in the form of an all knowing producer ala George Martin is a helpful thing to the 'craft' early on, what one does with that knowledge/experience is up to one's self.
Also, the separation of musician and writer can occur. A person's writing skills can go down the tubes, while their instrumental abilities can soar with age, or vice versa.
If one is talking of writing skills, the experiences that effect an audience of non millionaire commoners is more readily at hand early in most artist's careers. If they become successful, who are they 'talking' to? Their life experiences narrow, with that previous audience.
I don't think you have to hit some 'wall' at middle age, if you see aging as being a learning experience for yourself and mankind.
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bongo
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« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2004, 03:12 PM » |
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Dont read this as a judgement on his music, but as an honest question ...
Has his music evolved? Or is he playing essentially the same stuff he always has?
Im not a huge fan of his stuff, so my perspective is pretty broad. And from that perspective, it doesnt seem hes changed much. Not always a bad thing, doing what you do well is good (which is how I view Santana). But part of my feelings on the subject of quality music as you age, are about musical growth.
Regarding Santana: Yes, Carlos has changed ... a lot. He is a very experimental player that is a jazz man at heart. He has tracked a number of very progressive albums through the years, pushed the edge with jazz men like Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams, John McLaughlin, Alice Coltrane, Billy Cobham, Ron Carter, and Herbie Hancock. At times he has toured with jazz lineups. The record companies and the public were at odds with his vision, so typically he would record a few albums to apease the suits, then do another project closer to his heart. |
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bongo
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« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2004, 03:28 PM » |
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Exactly. My "career" is just starting to really happen. My playing is better than it has ever been. The musicians I play with are of the highest caliber I have ever played with, and the venues and money are the "biggest" yet. I think as the music industry changes and diversifies more into a niche market we will see "older" people get their due or become more envogue. There are lots of artists in their 30's that are just breaking. I don't know about you, but I think (I hope) my best work is yet to come. And yes, since I have not given a d**n about "making it" solely in the music business- my approach is much freer and more satisfying/enjoyable than ever. Who cares what other people think- that's the whole point. Most of them don't truly "get it" in the first place. Like all great artists- I'm quite sure I won't be fully appreciated till I'm dead too funny Right on felix! Old guys have had much more time to work the craft. Armando Peraza was 48 when he hooked up with young Carlos Santana. Armando was in his prime, skilled with years of playing, and hungry to boot. He went on to tear it up for another 18 years with Santana. |
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PaulDperc
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« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2004, 10:53 AM » |
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As far as Santana's music "evolving" goes Santana has gone through many changes. His first 3 albums where his best as far as I'm concerned. There were albums like "Amigos" we he kind of followed his old formulas but albums like "Caravanserai" were way off the chart from the first three. He has gone through "Them Changes" and maybe now he's back. (I hope). I started liking Santana because of his style of music, why would I want him to change? I love Salsa music, and to some people it all sounds the same. I remember bringing a salsa album to high school art class one time when I was in high school. I put on Bobby Rodriguez's album "Lead me to that beautiful band" which had some lyrics in english. A fellow student in the class who used to bring in records by Boston the next day I over heard describing salsa music to her friend who had been absent the day before. This is what she said. "You should have heard what they put on yesterday...it's sounded like...you heard that water dripping in the sink? That's what it sounded like." Another time I put one on with another teacher and the song had a bongo solo in it and the teacher said to me, "eh, Paul, I thing the record is scipping!" WOW! I mean that S**T was funny!!!! Any way back to Santana. IMO I fell he has "kept up with the joneses." (Did I spell that right?) As far as his writing...the band never wrote anything great anyway. It's always been about the music with them as far as I'm concerned. What can I say...I'm a fan. |
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Shoeless
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« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2004, 08:47 AM » |
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I remember seeing an interview with Carlos about the Shaman and Supernatural albums. He "reconnected" with Clive Davis and told him it was time for him (carlos) to make a "Radio Friendly" album.
I guess he had taken his kids to see some current act and realized there was nothing in the current scene that offered any sort of positive message to young people.
Those two albums represent his attempt to get something that was accessible to the younger crowd that didn't involve anger or angst or profanity or some other negativity.
And then he won the Grammies.
Do the math.
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Now let's go out there and melt some faces!
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drumwild
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« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2004, 12:32 PM » |
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As I cut a sandwich in half (yes, I CUT it!) I was thinking of how Avril Lavigne is so long-in-the-tooth. And those Olsen Twins just hit 18, so nobody's taking notice of them anymore. Our culture does not desire art or music so much as we want fresh meat and ornaments that make us trendy. Yum-yum... oh, what's that.. something new? I used to like what? Oh, that was SO three-hours-ago... besides, THIS is what's popular on the radio now. My friends like it, so clearly I must... Anyone who is an artist is certainly "cutting it".... it's just that nobody cares. Oh, people cared for a few minutes, but the trends move like the waves. The next trend... rock BANDS.. yes, actual bands... check out all the latest cell phone commercials. Rap will take a back-seat to rock once again. What was I saying?  Oh yes. I cut a sandwich. |
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Christopher
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« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2004, 01:25 PM » |
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Our culture does not desire art or music so much as we want fresh meat and ornaments that make us trendy. That's a sad (but true) commentary on contemporary western civilization in general. Our collective, ever decreasing attention span is only rivaled in depravity by our insatiable appetite for all things trendy. Fast food culture. It bums me out.  |
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"What one man can do, another can do."
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Chris Whitten
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« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2004, 02:12 PM » |
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But it does seem to me that a lot of artists go into coast mode as soon as they've had a few hit albums.
I'm sorry, but I think a few big names should work a little harder if they want me to buy their CD with my meager earnings.
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