xdrummer2000
Gold Member
Offline
Posts: 717
^My true face, j/k!
|
 |
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2004, 03:17 PM » |
|
Rhudak13, what kind of heads did you get, what kind of room do you play in, and how are they tuned? If you want a lower, less ringy sound with less overtones, use a two ply head(they can be tuned lower than 1 ply without sounding dead, and being that they are two ply, they have a deader sound, which is great in your case), put 1 or 2 moongel pads on the head, or for huge toms(16"+), use a remo muffl. And if you are playing in a small room, keep in mind that the drums resonate way more in there, but they bounce back at you. Live, in a large venue, some of those overtones are necessary to let the drums project, so keep that in mind, and I hope this helps. And if you need help tuning, don't hesitate to e-mail me--I'd be happy to help you with that. I have great sounding drums, a lot of experience with tuning, a desire to help people, and quite a bit of talent for someone who's only been playing 2.75 years(I can already play to a little bit of dream theater, not to brag). So, send me e-mail if you need help. Hope this helps.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Real Men Love Jesus"
|
|
|
|
ClockworkOrange
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2004, 03:49 PM » |
|
. But "BEST" is totally up to what the drummer wants to hear. NONSENSE. Best is what the DRUM delivers. THAT being, as pure a pitch as possible. That's like saying, 'This guitar is obviously out of tune, but, it sounds great to me, so I'm going to play it and I don't care'..........  The DRUM itself determines it's fundamental pitch through diameter, The tone is determined through the head type, shell material and depth of shell. The drummer doesn't IMPOSE a pitch on the drum that he picks out of thin air(or gets from hitting a shell with a mallet), that's ridiculous. There isn't a range for drums. More nonsense. That's like saying this instrument has NO true pitch. Every drum has a true pitch or fundamental, outside of this the sound of the instrument becomes altered to amplify, pitch bend or pitch waver, thereby moving farther away from the purity of an unaltered frequency. I can't give you hearing, that enables you to detect the nuances of tuning. Some people can hear it, some can't. That's just MY take on it, you can believe what you like.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
563
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 6612
drum + hand
|
 |
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2004, 04:16 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 3483
|
 |
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2004, 04:26 PM » |
|
NONSENSE. Best is what the DRUM delivers. THAT being, as pure a pitch as possible. That's like saying, 'This guitar is obviously out of tune, but, it sounds great to me, so I'm going to play it and I don't care'..........  Define 'out of tune' if you would, please? I feel I need not mention with too much emphasis the alternate guitar tunings mentioned here. The DRUM itself determines it's fundamental pitch through diameter, The tone is determined through the head type, shell material and depth of shell. This is true to an extent. Tuning the drum to harmonics of its favored frequency (NOT its pure pitch or whatever it is that you're saying) is something other drummers like to try. Still others like to have fun and experiment. The drummer doesn't IMPOSE a sound on the drum that he picks out of thin air(or gets from hitting a shell with a mallet), that's ridiculous. A drummer can indeed impose a sound on the drum by varying the time the stick is in contact with the head, the position with which he strikes the drum, the position on the drum upon which he strikes, the force with which he strikes it, etc. There isn't a range for drums. Yes, there is. That's like saying this instrument has NO true pitch. Every drum has a true pitch or fundamental, outside of this the sound of the instrument becomes altered to amplify, pitch bend or pitch waver, thereby moving farther away from the purity of an unaltered frequency. This also may be true to an extent. But, what if someone wants such a sound? How can you justify that this is inherently wrong? And don't give me this gobbledy-gook about how it's scientifically prohibited; that's moot in this case.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
ClockworkOrange
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2004, 05:53 PM » |
|
Alternate tuninings?.......Just because an instrument is capable of it, is it correct for the instrument? Tuning a Stradivarius to an A440 tuning is considered a very INCORRECT thing to do. It is very detrimental to the instrument, as the string tension creates enormous stress on the instrument. Attempting to tune a drum higher or lower than it's fundamental, though perhaps not as stressfull to the instrument as in the Stradivarius' case, doesn't make it correct. True. Drums are considered instruments of 'indefinite' pitch. However, that doesn't stop them from being tuned to as close a 'definite'(their fundamental) pitch as possible. I'll have to agree to disagree. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 3483
|
 |
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2004, 06:15 PM » |
|
Alternate tuninings?.......Just because an instrument is capable of it, is it correct for the instrument?
Tuning a Stradivarius to an A440 tuning is considered a very INCORRECT thing to do. It is very detrimental to the instrument, as the string tension creates enormous stress on the instrument. If you'll note the tunings provided in my cite, you'll see that in all but three cases that the strings are actually loosened. In the remaining three cases, the strings are not tuned above one whole step. We're not exactly talking "let's get a honky-tonk piano sound from the guitar". It is perfectly fine to do that if you wish. Let's not get hung up on strings here. They are hardly the point. Attempting to tune a drum higher or lower than it's fundamental, though perhaps not as stressfull to the instrument as in the Stradivarius' case, doesn't make it correct. It's certainly not stressful to anything but the drumhead in the case of a lower tuning—and whether fast drumhead turnaround is acceptable or not is entirely the perogative of the drummer. Conversely, if it is the choice of the drummer to play his drums at so-called "soup-pan tension" despite potential structural damage to the drum (which is quite variable depending on the materials, much in contrast to your Stradivarius strawman), what is basically wrong with that if that is the sound that the drummer/producer/muse/you-name-them wishes? To imply in any way, other than in an expression of subjective opinion, that only one way is the right way as to drum tuning is a vast display of ignorance. And, do not construe the word "ignorance" as an insult; it simply means that you do not know. A late edit (as of 8/4): According to this site as well as others, either all or some of the extant Stradivarius violins have been altered to accept A440 pitch.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
jameswalker
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2004, 08:05 PM » |
|
Scordatura.Do you know how long I've been waiting to use that #*&^$ word! 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 3483
|
 |
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2004, 08:11 PM » |
|
Scordatura.Do you know how long I've been waiting to use that #*&^$ word!  From here : Scordatura was popular between 1600 and 1750, and is used rarely now. Haw. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
Chip71
Cafe VIP
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 2555
|
 |
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2004, 09:45 PM » |
|
No way will I let a guitar player tell me how to tune my drums. I've been tuning drums for over 40 years and my ears aren't dead yet. Many things go into tuning and I know what I want the audience to hear. No way can you tell me that some great drummers tuned wrong. People bought their music because they liked what they heard. Also, there is no way would I tune my drums from what I've heard on someones site. Computer speakers aren't wood drums in a live setting. This is one of the funniest strings I've ever read. I'll take mine thin crust with cheese! 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"When you quit learning you start dieing"-My Grandfather
|
|
|
|
ClockworkOrange
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2004, 05:31 AM » |
|
To imply in any way, other than in an expression of subjective opinion, that only one way is the right way as to drum tuning is a vast display of ignorance. And, do not construe the word "ignorance" as an insult; it simply means that you do not know. A late edit (as of 8/4): According to this site as well as others, either all or some of the extant Stradivarius violins have been altered to accept A440 pitch.Sorry. I believe, and everything I've done with the instrument, brings me to the conclusion that- tuning the instrument to it's fundamental pitch is the CORRECT method of tuning. That is, it produces the purest pitch of the instrument and any other tuning is not as good. That's MY story, and I'm stickin' to it.  Interestingly enough, the 'altered' Stradavari you speak of do not have as nice a tone(according to the players), nor fetch as much at resale as the unaltered versions.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
jameswalker
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2004, 07:00 AM » |
|
Sorry. I believe, and everything I've done with the instrument, brings me to the conclusion that- tuning the instrument to it's fundamental pitch is the CORRECT method of tuning. That is, it produces the purest pitch of the instrument and any other tuning is not as good. That's MY story, and I'm stickin' to it.  Orange, You've found the sound you like, and God bless you for it - there's certainly nothing wrong with it. The Bonham sound is a great drum sound, no argument here - but it's not the only definition of a great drum sound, IMHO. However, all this talk about "pure tone" and "correct tuning" - a "pure tone" isn't always the ideal. To say something is your preferred sound? Fine, and I won't (can't) argue with that - but a sound is a sound is a sound, with no absolutes. The drummer in my (jazz) vibes trio and I were talking about this recently. He was experimenting with some different tunings on his toms, and he tried the approach you're espousing. He agreed that it was a great sound - but he also felt there was too much sustain for his tastes, and on his drums, at least, this added sustain detracted from his playing - by tuning the batter and reso heads differently, the articulation of the drums was more clearly defined, and the notes weren't blurring together. He still gets a great sound and plenty of sustain out of his toms (thanks to the iso mounts, and the slightly undersized shells on his Genistas - neither of which Bonham had, IIRC), but he opted - for musical reasons - to cut back from the maximum sustain. That's what sounded best to him with his drums, for the sound he wanted. It's not your sound, but to say it's not "correct" - I don't understand how that conclusion could be drawn. To say a "pure tone" is the only "correct tuning" - that strikes me as comparable to saying that only primary colors are "correct" and that painters should only use them, rather than mixing them to come up with new hues and shades.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 12752
Be Thankful
|
 |
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2004, 07:15 AM » |
|
To answer the original question ...
The best way to eliminate overtones is through tuning. Whatever tuning you use, it's always going to be the best ... as opposed to having to dampen the drum by applying various articles (Moon Gel, tape, ZerOring, etc.).
Keeping the drum raw will allow it to sound it's fullest. Adding dampening material reduces upper partials (overtones) ... some of which make up the body of the drum's sound.
So the trick is to only eliminate those overtones associated with the resonance you don't like or want in your drum. You want to reduce, not kill the sound. That's why tuning is always the best approach.
Each drum is different; even similar models and sizes. You'll have to experiment to find what works best for each drum. And as soon as you change the pitch relationship and/or drumhead selection between the batter and resonant head ... you also change the equation. If you understand and embrace this, you'll have a lot less headaches each time you work with your drum(s). The mylar changes over time as well, so as the drumheads get older, the method by which you deal with the overtones may also change.
Experiment and use what works best for the moment. There is not ONE way to deal with this, but the tuning approach is going to be best way to start. If that doesn't work, then go with some light dampening.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
|
|
|
|
ClockworkOrange
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2004, 02:31 PM » |
|
To say a "pure tone" is the only "correct tuning" - that strikes me as comparable to saying that only primary colors are "correct" and that painters should only use them, rather than mixing them to come up with new hues and shades.
No. It is saying that just as magenta, cyan, and yellow are the starting point for blending, so, fundamental tuning of the instrument should be for sound. You can use different heads, types of muffling, playing areas on those heads, shell materials, drums of differing sizes, diameters etc, play them together, play them separately, use brushes , sticks, mallets whatever your mind allows. To say that fundamental tuning is in any way limiting is wrong. Or you can look at it like Billy Cobham, 'Colours? Man, that's just a lot of jive.' 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Joe
supporter
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 3483
|
 |
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2004, 02:56 PM » |
|
To say that fundamental tuning is in any way limiting is wrong.
I don't think that was said. I know that my stance is "To limit oneself to the perfectly viable option of fundamental tuning in light of the other possibilities is a drummer's perogative; to more than humbly suggest the same for other drummers as the only right way is really pushing it, to say the very least."
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm not a particularly slow player, yet I don't play fast. I play half-fast.
|
|
|
|
LuvmyLeedy
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2004, 02:57 PM » |
|
this thread is way off topic now, but i'm gonna jump in. as someone who plays plastic drums i never tune my drums - i tune my heads.  shell resonance plays no part in my drum sound. shell reflection does though. drum shell dimensions provide for a certain interaction between heads because of air pressure and sound reflections within the shell. therefore the relationship between top and bottom heads is paramount in the sound produced. given the same diameter, different shell depths allow for different interactions between heads. given the vast number of different shell types, shapes and acoustic qualities, making generalizations about tuning and what's right seems to me to be a red herring. it can't be done. all one can do is explore each drum on it's own merits and discover the best possible sound for a given situation. what's right for one musical situation is definitely not right for every situation. there just cannot be an absolute best tuning for any drum. they are made to be used in a musical context and that context and the musical expression of the drummer alone determine what's "best" and what sounds best to the drummer is only the best sound for the drum if the drummer is aware of all the possible sounds that the drum is capable of, and is making an educated decision. sadly i have met far too many drummers who lack tuning skills to believe this is always the case. one also has to keep an open mind about what drum sound will work for the situation. it might just be hydraulic heads with the bottom hoops off and a wallet on the snare. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
563
supporter
Platinum Member
Offline
Posts: 6612
drum + hand
|
 |
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2004, 03:30 PM » |
|
No. It is saying that just as magenta, cyan, and yellow are the starting point for blending, so, fundamental tuning of the instrument should be for sound. AHHH ... ok ... because up until this post, you were saying anything outside that fundamental is incorrect and ultimately undesireable. Not once did you refer to it as a starting point for other tuning options.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Making bad art. Saying stupid things. Implimenting my master plan to be forgotten when I'm gone and forgettable while I'm here. The Luna MothmeTableland
|
|
|
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 12752
Be Thankful
|
 |
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2004, 04:12 PM » |
|
AHHH ... ok ... because up until this post, you were saying anything outside that fundamental is incorrect and ultimately undesireable. Not once did you refer to it as a starting point for other tuning options.
EXACTLY!!! We can't read minds; at least I can't. Say what you mean, mean what you say. No need to be arrogant or hostile ... just bring clarity to your statements.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
|
|
|
|
ClockworkOrange
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2004, 04:54 PM » |
|
AHHH ... ok ... because up until this post, you were saying anything outside that fundamental is incorrect and ultimately undesireable. Not once did you refer to it as a starting point for other tuning options.
Yes and No.....I give up.  Maybe the paint analogy doesn't work for non artists. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bart Elliott
Chef de Cuisine
Platinum Member
Online
Posts: 12752
Be Thankful
|
 |
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2004, 05:56 PM » |
|
Maybe the paint analogy doesn't work for non artists.  I think it's everything that you said BEFORE the paint analogy that has everyone questioning your stance. You seem to be saying two very different things. Perhaps best to just drop it. I think we all get the point now. No need to drag this out, whatever the reason or purpose. Now ... back to the topic at hand ...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
My doctor says it's bad for my blood pressure if my mind is blown for more than five minutes at a time.
|
|
|
|
ClockworkOrange
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2004, 04:47 AM » |
|
yeah OK. It's better to tune the drum to it's fundamental pitch and dampen any sustain that's too long for the drummers liking, than to take a key and tension out the transients that exist around the drum's fundamental pitch. Doing so(tensioning out) those transients results in a drum that sounds dull and has a warped sustain. If you've maximized all the good character of the instrument that you can, through fundamental tuning, why would you want to destroy it through moving away from it with the key? Who here can actually describe how one would tune to achieve the fundamental pitch of a drum? 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|