Topic: Re:Jazz Ride Techniques  (Read 9485 times)

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felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« on: September 23, 2002, 04:51 PM »
I like the nickname "Pops" don't you?

Maybe Mr. Drum can help you out.

I was listening to some Max Roach fast jazz this weekend...whatta silky fast skip beat he's capable of.

I'm not sure how qualified I am to expound on this subject but I play skip beats faster when I have a lighter, more slender stick (duh) and when I keep the stick cradled in the FIRST JOINT fulcrum.

Practice practice practice...practice playing light and crispy, let the stick and your fingers make it happen....dadda-da dadda-da dadda-da...fast and as smooth as you can, then mix it up, then play it 3 over 4

I'd say since you have been playing quite some time it shouldn't take you very long (couple 2-3 years of studying fast jazz) to really get it smoking.  Get some videos too.

marker

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2002, 05:56 PM »
It seems I read an interview once where one of those lightning speed bop guys admitted to playing two handed ride when the tempos got really ridiculous.  Something you could try, anyway.

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2002, 06:04 AM »
Try thumb in the "up" position as well if you are aren't already.

Jazz is a blast...I've been getting into it lately.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2002, 07:18 AM »
I'm sure you know this and are doing this, but I want to mention it just in case ... and for anyone new to this.

The standard jazz ride pattern is swung ... sounds something like ....

"Please, shut the door, shut the door, shut the door"

When you increase the tempo, the swung rhythm is smoothed out .... notated as an eighth-note followed by two sixteenth-notes.

It's impossible to play the swung pattern at faster tempos; each individual has a different pivot point as to when you actually make the change from swung to straight.

Now ... if you were not straightening out the pattern this would definitely inhibit you from playing the faster tempos.

Also ... many old-school jazzers play this faster three-note sequence as one motion ... skipping or bouncing the stick ... using a quasi Moeller technique.

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2002, 07:26 AM »
Fer sure Bart...I like to call it a reduced moeller

Was checking out the burning for buddy video last week and happened to catch old Joe Morello...man he has pretty hands.

I have a cross over/sticking lesson with one of the area jazz cats in town next week.  Should be a hoot.  Maybe I can share some stuff with y'all.

Offline Tony

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2002, 08:39 AM »
I was going to mention the modified Moeller technique as well.  I've been taking lessons for the last year just on this technique, and have noticed a HUGE improvement in my speed and control.  By slightly modifying it for the jazz ride technique, I have been able to get to tempos I previously couldn't.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline Tony

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2002, 09:10 AM »
If you are interested in a book on the Moeller technique, check out Dom Famularo's "It's Your Move".  I would also recommend Jim Chapin's video "Speed, Control, Power and Endurance" (or something like that).  A really good video that is chock full of info and some amazing playing by the man himself.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2002, 10:03 PM »
Moeller technique, bounce technique, ok, BUT NOT two hands to play the jazz ride pattern, please, don't do that. Just take it from where you're at (150 bpm) and take it up a notch every week on your metronome. Relax and let those muscles expand. blessins on ya  ;)

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2002, 06:03 AM »
Quote
Moeller technique, bounce technique, ok, BUT NOT two hands to play the jazz ride pattern, please, don't do that

Yeah, I was like "what's up with that?"


Offline Tony

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2002, 08:20 AM »
I once had a drum teacher in high school tell me it didn't matter how the notes got played, just as long as they got played.  Ok, I guess I'll play a 2 handed swing pattern on the ride and sacrifice the hole left hand comping thing  8)  It'll be a new trend, c'mon, let's start it, we'll have fun!!!  

Yeah, so anyway, he didn't last very long as my teacher.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2002, 08:29 AM »
I totally blew my mind this morning.  I have about 6?  I'll have to check again, cymbal turnaround and ride variations I was goofing with this morning...well, unfortunately I got a "terrible" idea:

And that was use ted reed's syncopation or advanced techniques for the modern hitter with these different ride patterns as melody lines, systems whatever ala Gary Chester's New Breed Method of syncopation.

Uh, just when you think you know how to play drums.

Offline James Walker

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2002, 10:14 AM »
Quote
Moeller technique, bounce technique, ok, BUT NOT two hands to play the jazz ride pattern, please, don't do that

Yeah, I was like "what's up with that?"



That's not to say that one can't do some interesting things playing ride cymbal (or two ride cymbals) with both hands (see:  Wertico, Paul), but in terms of the standard "ding-ding-a-ding" ride pattern, I'm with everyone else here - don't go two-handed.

"I played with Holdsworth, Fripp, and Belew...I wish we drummers could play that differently. Drummers are starting to homogenize into the same guy, which frightens me." - Bill Bruford

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2002, 11:17 AM »
I think I see what you are saying. I just said I found several different jazz ride patterns to syncopate with.  One would in essence be changing the standard "ding ding a dingaling" pattern with one slightly different.  It is really hard (well at least difficult and requiring some new muscle memory) to keep that slightly different pattern "straight" while syncopating the rest of your limbs (for us mortals anyways).  And then do it fast although YMMV

Most cats do what you are inferring and that is hint at the different patterns and syncopations (easier to accomplish IMHO).


Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2002, 11:27 AM »
Yeah Felix, the independence thang inc. Chester and Reed and Chapin is what's specified in the book by Gary Chester himself....whew, as if that book isn't ridiculous enough by itself... :o  :o. I'll tell ya Felix, if you really wanna start blowing your brain particles all over the drum floor, then get Horacio Hernandez book "Conversations in Clave"...left foot clave  :P...I don't know if you're into latin stuff, but I find it very cool, but it's a personal disorder, ya know? take care bro!  :)

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2002, 11:50 AM »
I'll pick it up right after I get thru Doug Tann's "Forgotten Foot

Ratamatatt

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2002, 11:51 AM »
I can play a swing pattern up about 290-300 BPM. After that (ie: Small Hotel, Kid From Red Bank), I've played 2 hands on the HH when I've needed to, and on the ride I just play single strokes and mix in triples as much as I can.  I envy players who can go to 350 and up.  I saw Jack Dejohnette at a clinic playing effortlessly at about 350.

Ratamatatt

Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2002, 12:01 PM »
Yep Felix, I have Doug Tann's book, too...still picking up the brains left on the floor from that one....whew! ;D

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2002, 12:04 PM »
If you just HAD to play a tune that was so fast that you could hang ... and you needed to play the standard jazz ride pattern, here's what I would do:

Play the ride pattern, but leave out beats 2 and 4 ... allowing the hihat foot to cover that.

If the tempo was so fast that you just needed to play jazz time (not necessarily repeating the standard pattern over and over again), I would focus on QUARTER-NOTES ... which is the most important thing anyway since that's what the bass player is doing when he's "walking".  Sneak some of the swung notes from the standard pattern, when you can, but just go with the quarter-notes.  Remember, this is ONLY if you HAVE to play something that is so fast that you can't keep up, or if you are just too tired to continue.

My opinion is that you shouldn't be playing something so fast that you can't keep up with anyway. Slow down for goodness sakes, and play the song at a comfortable tempo.

Which is worse, telling the band that you just can't hang at these 200 bpm to the half-note tempos ... or ... playing so bad, trying to keep up, that you turn the beat over and/or the song falls apart?

The answer: Be Humble ... the music comes first, not your pride.

Offline James Walker

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2002, 12:18 PM »
"Pops" - I was typing this up when you just posted your reply to Bart, so this becomes much more of a rhetorical question...but what the hell, I'll post it anyway:

If you just HAD to play a tune that was so fast that you could hang ... and you needed to play the standard jazz ride pattern, here's what I would do:

This raises the question:  do you really NEED to play the standard jazz ride pattern?

Rather than just sticking with "ding-ding-a-ding" ad nauseum, start with a quarter note base (same as the walking bass line...hmm, maybe there's a connection there?), and then vary the ride cymbal to get some good melodic interest in the cymbal part.  It's tough to make an unchanging "ding-ding-a-ding" sound good throughout an entire tune at any tempo (which makes Jimmy Cobb's work on Miles' "Kind Of Blue" all the more impressive.)

I highly recommend Bob Moses' book, Drum Wisdom, particularly the section on the "eight-point concept."  It really helped me understand what the ride cymbal in jazz is all about.

"I played with Holdsworth, Fripp, and Belew...I wish we drummers could play that differently. Drummers are starting to homogenize into the same guy, which frightens me." - Bill Bruford

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2002, 01:10 PM »
I agree with James.

The only time I really try to stick to playing the "standard" jazz ride pattern is when I'm playing Big Band or Dixieland music. Even then, I don't FORCE myself, but just try to play the style as authentic as possible.

I think we've been discussing the "ding-ding-a-ding" pattern because this is what we find in method books when working out the independence between the other limbs.

I also think that when we play with a combo versus a big band, our approach to the time pattern is different. With a big band, I usually stay close to home plate by playing the standard jazz ride pattern. When I'm with a jazz combo, I'm more of a creative voice ... not just a time keeper or they guy who sets up the figures for the band to play (ala Big Band).

When I studied with Alan Dawson, he would have me play my ride so that it enhanced the melody line of the tune, while being aware of the standard jazz time. Often times this would mean I would outline the melody on my ride, continuing the time, and embellishing as needed (or desired) with the parts of the kit (ie. snare, kick, etc.). This isn't a "rule" but merely an approach to interpreting the music.

Some jazzers get uptight when the "drummer" is really a "cymbal player" more than a "drummer" because all the time is on the cymbals. Again this is all up to the interpretation of the musician, but there is a good point to be made with all of this ... but I just don't know what it is!  ;)

Great thread by the way ...

 

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