Topic: Re:Jazz Ride Techniques  (Read 9475 times)

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felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« on: September 23, 2002, 04:51 PM »
I like the nickname "Pops" don't you?

Maybe Mr. Drum can help you out.

I was listening to some Max Roach fast jazz this weekend...whatta silky fast skip beat he's capable of.

I'm not sure how qualified I am to expound on this subject but I play skip beats faster when I have a lighter, more slender stick (duh) and when I keep the stick cradled in the FIRST JOINT fulcrum.

Practice practice practice...practice playing light and crispy, let the stick and your fingers make it happen....dadda-da dadda-da dadda-da...fast and as smooth as you can, then mix it up, then play it 3 over 4

I'd say since you have been playing quite some time it shouldn't take you very long (couple 2-3 years of studying fast jazz) to really get it smoking.  Get some videos too.

marker

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2002, 05:56 PM »
It seems I read an interview once where one of those lightning speed bop guys admitted to playing two handed ride when the tempos got really ridiculous.  Something you could try, anyway.

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2002, 06:04 AM »
Try thumb in the "up" position as well if you are aren't already.

Jazz is a blast...I've been getting into it lately.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2002, 07:18 AM »
I'm sure you know this and are doing this, but I want to mention it just in case ... and for anyone new to this.

The standard jazz ride pattern is swung ... sounds something like ....

"Please, shut the door, shut the door, shut the door"

When you increase the tempo, the swung rhythm is smoothed out .... notated as an eighth-note followed by two sixteenth-notes.

It's impossible to play the swung pattern at faster tempos; each individual has a different pivot point as to when you actually make the change from swung to straight.

Now ... if you were not straightening out the pattern this would definitely inhibit you from playing the faster tempos.

Also ... many old-school jazzers play this faster three-note sequence as one motion ... skipping or bouncing the stick ... using a quasi Moeller technique.

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2002, 07:26 AM »
Fer sure Bart...I like to call it a reduced moeller

Was checking out the burning for buddy video last week and happened to catch old Joe Morello...man he has pretty hands.

I have a cross over/sticking lesson with one of the area jazz cats in town next week.  Should be a hoot.  Maybe I can share some stuff with y'all.

Offline Tony

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2002, 08:39 AM »
I was going to mention the modified Moeller technique as well.  I've been taking lessons for the last year just on this technique, and have noticed a HUGE improvement in my speed and control.  By slightly modifying it for the jazz ride technique, I have been able to get to tempos I previously couldn't.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline Tony

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2002, 09:10 AM »
If you are interested in a book on the Moeller technique, check out Dom Famularo's "It's Your Move".  I would also recommend Jim Chapin's video "Speed, Control, Power and Endurance" (or something like that).  A really good video that is chock full of info and some amazing playing by the man himself.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2002, 10:03 PM »
Moeller technique, bounce technique, ok, BUT NOT two hands to play the jazz ride pattern, please, don't do that. Just take it from where you're at (150 bpm) and take it up a notch every week on your metronome. Relax and let those muscles expand. blessins on ya  ;)

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2002, 06:03 AM »
Quote
Moeller technique, bounce technique, ok, BUT NOT two hands to play the jazz ride pattern, please, don't do that

Yeah, I was like "what's up with that?"


Offline Tony

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2002, 08:20 AM »
I once had a drum teacher in high school tell me it didn't matter how the notes got played, just as long as they got played.  Ok, I guess I'll play a 2 handed swing pattern on the ride and sacrifice the hole left hand comping thing  8)  It'll be a new trend, c'mon, let's start it, we'll have fun!!!  

Yeah, so anyway, he didn't last very long as my teacher.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2002, 08:29 AM »
I totally blew my mind this morning.  I have about 6?  I'll have to check again, cymbal turnaround and ride variations I was goofing with this morning...well, unfortunately I got a "terrible" idea:

And that was use ted reed's syncopation or advanced techniques for the modern hitter with these different ride patterns as melody lines, systems whatever ala Gary Chester's New Breed Method of syncopation.

Uh, just when you think you know how to play drums.

Offline James Walker

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2002, 10:14 AM »
Quote
Moeller technique, bounce technique, ok, BUT NOT two hands to play the jazz ride pattern, please, don't do that

Yeah, I was like "what's up with that?"



That's not to say that one can't do some interesting things playing ride cymbal (or two ride cymbals) with both hands (see:  Wertico, Paul), but in terms of the standard "ding-ding-a-ding" ride pattern, I'm with everyone else here - don't go two-handed.

"I played with Holdsworth, Fripp, and Belew...I wish we drummers could play that differently. Drummers are starting to homogenize into the same guy, which frightens me." - Bill Bruford

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2002, 11:17 AM »
I think I see what you are saying. I just said I found several different jazz ride patterns to syncopate with.  One would in essence be changing the standard "ding ding a dingaling" pattern with one slightly different.  It is really hard (well at least difficult and requiring some new muscle memory) to keep that slightly different pattern "straight" while syncopating the rest of your limbs (for us mortals anyways).  And then do it fast although YMMV

Most cats do what you are inferring and that is hint at the different patterns and syncopations (easier to accomplish IMHO).


Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2002, 11:27 AM »
Yeah Felix, the independence thang inc. Chester and Reed and Chapin is what's specified in the book by Gary Chester himself....whew, as if that book isn't ridiculous enough by itself... :o  :o. I'll tell ya Felix, if you really wanna start blowing your brain particles all over the drum floor, then get Horacio Hernandez book "Conversations in Clave"...left foot clave  :P...I don't know if you're into latin stuff, but I find it very cool, but it's a personal disorder, ya know? take care bro!  :)

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2002, 11:50 AM »
I'll pick it up right after I get thru Doug Tann's "Forgotten Foot

Ratamatatt

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2002, 11:51 AM »
I can play a swing pattern up about 290-300 BPM. After that (ie: Small Hotel, Kid From Red Bank), I've played 2 hands on the HH when I've needed to, and on the ride I just play single strokes and mix in triples as much as I can.  I envy players who can go to 350 and up.  I saw Jack Dejohnette at a clinic playing effortlessly at about 350.

Ratamatatt

Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2002, 12:01 PM »
Yep Felix, I have Doug Tann's book, too...still picking up the brains left on the floor from that one....whew! ;D

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2002, 12:04 PM »
If you just HAD to play a tune that was so fast that you could hang ... and you needed to play the standard jazz ride pattern, here's what I would do:

Play the ride pattern, but leave out beats 2 and 4 ... allowing the hihat foot to cover that.

If the tempo was so fast that you just needed to play jazz time (not necessarily repeating the standard pattern over and over again), I would focus on QUARTER-NOTES ... which is the most important thing anyway since that's what the bass player is doing when he's "walking".  Sneak some of the swung notes from the standard pattern, when you can, but just go with the quarter-notes.  Remember, this is ONLY if you HAVE to play something that is so fast that you can't keep up, or if you are just too tired to continue.

My opinion is that you shouldn't be playing something so fast that you can't keep up with anyway. Slow down for goodness sakes, and play the song at a comfortable tempo.

Which is worse, telling the band that you just can't hang at these 200 bpm to the half-note tempos ... or ... playing so bad, trying to keep up, that you turn the beat over and/or the song falls apart?

The answer: Be Humble ... the music comes first, not your pride.

Offline James Walker

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2002, 12:18 PM »
"Pops" - I was typing this up when you just posted your reply to Bart, so this becomes much more of a rhetorical question...but what the hell, I'll post it anyway:

If you just HAD to play a tune that was so fast that you could hang ... and you needed to play the standard jazz ride pattern, here's what I would do:

This raises the question:  do you really NEED to play the standard jazz ride pattern?

Rather than just sticking with "ding-ding-a-ding" ad nauseum, start with a quarter note base (same as the walking bass line...hmm, maybe there's a connection there?), and then vary the ride cymbal to get some good melodic interest in the cymbal part.  It's tough to make an unchanging "ding-ding-a-ding" sound good throughout an entire tune at any tempo (which makes Jimmy Cobb's work on Miles' "Kind Of Blue" all the more impressive.)

I highly recommend Bob Moses' book, Drum Wisdom, particularly the section on the "eight-point concept."  It really helped me understand what the ride cymbal in jazz is all about.

"I played with Holdsworth, Fripp, and Belew...I wish we drummers could play that differently. Drummers are starting to homogenize into the same guy, which frightens me." - Bill Bruford

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2002, 01:10 PM »
I agree with James.

The only time I really try to stick to playing the "standard" jazz ride pattern is when I'm playing Big Band or Dixieland music. Even then, I don't FORCE myself, but just try to play the style as authentic as possible.

I think we've been discussing the "ding-ding-a-ding" pattern because this is what we find in method books when working out the independence between the other limbs.

I also think that when we play with a combo versus a big band, our approach to the time pattern is different. With a big band, I usually stay close to home plate by playing the standard jazz ride pattern. When I'm with a jazz combo, I'm more of a creative voice ... not just a time keeper or they guy who sets up the figures for the band to play (ala Big Band).

When I studied with Alan Dawson, he would have me play my ride so that it enhanced the melody line of the tune, while being aware of the standard jazz time. Often times this would mean I would outline the melody on my ride, continuing the time, and embellishing as needed (or desired) with the parts of the kit (ie. snare, kick, etc.). This isn't a "rule" but merely an approach to interpreting the music.

Some jazzers get uptight when the "drummer" is really a "cymbal player" more than a "drummer" because all the time is on the cymbals. Again this is all up to the interpretation of the musician, but there is a good point to be made with all of this ... but I just don't know what it is!  ;)

Great thread by the way ...

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2002, 01:30 PM »
yeah it is.


Check out the Rat making 250-300 with the ding a ling pattern...I'd really be impressed if he was doing that with some happening syncopation or better yet pulling doubles with your kick, brushes in hand- anyways-

I love fast/jazz these days- lots of new frontier for ME to cover.

Rumpalini

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2002, 03:35 AM »
Quote
I highly recommend Bob Moses' book, Drum Wisdom, particularly the section on the "eight-point concept."  It really helped me understand what the ride cymbal in jazz is all about.

Hi sir. I have the book. But i'm quite dense. I'm one of those who can't get it unless i actually see it or at least hear it. Can you please enlighten me as to Bob Moses' eight-point concept.  ???

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2002, 05:49 AM »
What don't you get about it?  Moses does a really nice job of explaining it in the book.  If there's something specific in Moses' explanation that doesn't make sense to you, let me know, and I'll do my best to help illuminate the concept.

Essentially, in a measure of 4/4 time, there are eight eighth-notes - the "eight points."  Each count, when accented or when serving as the last note (metric division) of a phrase, has a different effect on the forward momentum of the music - some enhance the sense of forward motion, others diminish that sense.

Knowing what eighth-note divisions push the music forward and which ones don't, can be applied to the rhythms you play in your straight-ahead-jazz ride cymbal work- as well as other grooves and styles.
"I played with Holdsworth, Fripp, and Belew...I wish we drummers could play that differently. Drummers are starting to homogenize into the same guy, which frightens me." - Bill Bruford

Offline Scott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2002, 07:44 AM »
Well, since I saw this topic back up at the top of the list, I thought I'd add a quick comment.

Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?  This is a very Elvin-ish approach, but I've enjoyed applying it to my jazz playing and it usually results in a nice pattern for the ride (as well as comping figure), at both slow and fast tempos.  

Buddy also made use of this rudiment in his playing, especially during solos.

Anyway, just wanted to point this out as another application towards jazz ride playing.   :)

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2002, 08:01 AM »
Quote
Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?

All the time...usually when I'm in triple mode I will use the double paraddidle along with at least two inversions of it I play quite a bit.  If I want to play 16th's or go into duple feel I might do a version of the single paradiddle, but I don't usually (just never thought of it)- hmmm?  Pretty cool...anyways-

In medium jazz I double the value double paradiddle and in fast stuff I just play them to the value of the 8th note trip.

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2002, 08:03 AM »
Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?  This is a very Elvin-ish approach, but I've enjoyed applying it to my jazz playing and it usually results in a nice pattern for the ride (as well as comping figure), at both slow and fast tempos.  
Anyway, just wanted to point this out as another application towards jazz ride playing.   :)

That's a VERY fun thing to play! I learned it at a clinic given by Marv Dahlgren (whose independence is just SCARY). It was one of those licks that sounds much more complex than it is.

First he played it for us very fast, and then while we were all scratching our heads, he asked us if we knew what it was. When he revealed that it was just a fast paradiddle-diddle, starting on beat 2, and split between ride and snare, we were amazed.

It's funny - many drummers can't do very much triplet-based comping with the left hand at a brisk tempo, but this one is so easy AND so cool sounding, it makes you feel like you just discovered some hidden chops!
Hit on 2. Repeat on 4.
(instructions found written on Mr. A's snare drum)

Offline Scott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2002, 08:49 AM »
Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?  This is a very Elvin-ish approach, but I've enjoyed applying it to my jazz playing and it usually results in a nice pattern for the ride (as well as comping figure), at both slow and fast tempos.  
Anyway, just wanted to point this out as another application towards jazz ride playing.   :)
It's funny - many drummers can't do very much triplet-based comping with the left hand at a brisk tempo, but this one is so easy AND so cool sounding, it makes you feel like you just discovered some hidden chops!

Haha!!  I agree -- it is one of the those revelationary things that just makes you feel like a true jazzer!!  hahaha!!!  NOT!  :)

Seriously, paradiddle applications are cool and are the foundations for a lot of the stuff that I do and I'm sure all of us do.  In fact, I'll share a bit of info I picked up from our very own Bartman at our last lesson while he was still in town.   :(

He was showing me exactly what Felix was talking about with the use of the double and triple paradiddles.  It was mainly in the context of fusion and latin so it had kind of a Weckl/Gadd/Morgenstein sound to it.  Anyway, I had never thought in terms of that where the entire beat was linear in the sense of a double or triple paradiddle application to a drumset beat.  He also put a beat together combining the double with the triple and then a beat combining the double (6/8 time) with the single.  Actually, I think that one was something like:  in 6/8, one measure of two doubles plus one measure of three singles.  Of course, as with most paradiddle applications with triplet feels, the sticking reverses back every two measures.  

But ironically, the coolest application I got from B-man at that lesson, was actually an application of the ol' paradiddle diddle.  What Bart did was a 6/8 groove with LH on closed hihat, and RH alternating between ride and snare using this rudiment.  In light of the jazz application of this rudiment that we've already discussed, I had never tried applying it to a "beat" the way that B-man did.  Well, as you can imagine, I've now adapted that beat incorporating the sticking between toms, cymbals, etc.  I love it!   :)  Thanks, Bart!  haha!!

This is probably nothing new for most you guys, but for me, it was really a concept I hadn't fully explored or realized in all of these years.   :)

felix

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2002, 10:58 AM »
Then group your kick in with the voices in groups of 2- 3 or 4

Yeah baby....stuffs a blast.  I think I'll quit trying to make some munny and go play my drums now.

bye.

Offline Paul DAngelo

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2002, 11:39 AM »
Just put on Miles Davis' "Milestones" CD today.  "Philly" Joe Jones is simply AWESOME.  This is the type of jazz drumming I'm talking about.
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Offline Scott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2002, 11:54 AM »
Just put on Miles Davis' "Milestones" CD today.  "Philly" Joe Jones is simply AWESOME.  This is the type of jazz drumming I'm talking about.

Pops -- that's funny, because I was listening to the same thing earlier!   :)

I was getting into the swing on 'Two Base Hit' and the brush work and trading fours on 'Billy Boy.'

Love it!   ;)

Offline Paul DAngelo

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2002, 12:00 PM »
Jeez, EXACTLY.  Just listened to it again.  The two you mentioned are actually my favorites.  I originally bought the CD when Modern Drummer basically said if you want something that DEFINES jazz drumming, pick it up.  The first time I heard Billy Boy.... wow.  I read there were times when he had to go unhock his drumset to play a gig (unfortunately he had a "drug" problem).  Man, this cat is phenomenal.  8)
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rlhubley

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2002, 01:00 PM »
sad, but the whole "hocking your axe" was really pretty common back in the day.  Herion kind of had many of the cats in a sad state.  

Ratamatatt

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2002, 12:46 PM »
Just put on Miles Davis' "Milestones" CD today.  "Philly" Joe Jones is simply AWESOME.  This is the type of jazz drumming I'm talking about.

Pops -- that's funny, because I was listening to the same thing earlier!   :)

I was getting into the swing on 'Two Base Hit' and the brush work and trading fours on 'Billy Boy.'

Love it!   ;)

I agree, Philly Joe is one of the all time bop greats.  But, there are others who's ride patterns are more evolved and blur the line between swinging 8ths and syncopated 16ths (ie: a swing/samba fusion) such as Jack Dejohnette, Al Foster, Peter Erskine.  Some of the patterns I've heard are simply amazing and inspiring.  Sometimes I can't believe the patterns are being played with one hand.

Which brings  me to the technique Bart was talking about: not playing the ride on 2 and 4 and letting the HH (which is played on 2 and 4 anyway) substitute for that space.  I saw a samba pattern on an internet site that applied that technique.  At up tempo speed it sounds like your playing straight 16th notes on the ride when your actually playing it like this: Ride ("r") HH ("H")

: rrHr rrHr rrHr rrHr :  Mix that pattern with the typical samba sounding double bass and mixing up the snare a little and you've got a smokin grove.  

Ratamatatt


Offline Paul DAngelo

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2002, 12:54 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion Ratamatatt.  I just went back and re-read Bart's post, and along with your explanation, it seems like a great idea, basically relieving your right hand of doing something that's already being taken care of by the hi-hats.  Understand what you mean about the Samba beat as well.  Thanks again, I'll be trying it out tonight  :)  in my basement  :(
When you're going through Hell, keep going.  (Winston Churchill)

Offline Paul DAngelo

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2002, 02:37 PM »
BTW, thanks everyone for your input on this thread.  It started out by wanting to know if my grip and technique were correct, but I learned a lot out of the thread.

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.  ;)
When you're going through Hell, keep going.  (Winston Churchill)

Offline Bob Levey

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2002, 10:13 PM »
Check out the reissue of "For Musicians Only" with Dizzy Gellispie, Stan Getz, Sonny Stitt, Ray Brown, Herb Ellis, John Lewis, and Stan Levey. He was not not a big name star with the public but all the real  players new my Old Man could do the ride thing faster than anyone and with the best of them and all the players new it Max, Philly, Buddy etc.

Check it out NO FLASH JUST HARD CORE BEBOP.

Sincerely,

Bob Levey

Offline Paul DAngelo

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2002, 11:39 AM »
Ooh, sounds good, I'll definitely check it out.  Thanks.
When you're going through Hell, keep going.  (Winston Churchill)

Offline Scott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2002, 03:17 PM »
OK - I'm resurrecting this thread per Pops.  :)

Seriously - how do you guys comp at these insanely fast tempos/jazz ride patterns?  I have a hard enough time keeping up the right hand on the ride cymbal.  When I really want to comp, I sometimes jeopardize the tempo unless I switch the right hand pattern to straight quarter notes.

Ratamatatt

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2002, 05:10 PM »
OK - I'm resurrecting this thread per Pops.  :)

Seriously - how do you guys comp at these insanely fast tempos/jazz ride patterns?  I have a hard enough time keeping up the right hand on the ride cymbal.  When I really want to comp, I sometimes jeopardize the tempo unless I switch the right hand pattern to straight quarter notes.

That's a excellent question.  I'm still not sure.  On another thread on the issue of counting, a couple of guys talked about counting in bigger note values like half notes and whole notes rather that quarters.  At medium and slower swing tempos it's easier to comp while thinking in terms of quarter notes.  But if the quarter notes are flying by at 250 bpm plus, mentally it's impossible (at least for me) to comprehend comping patterns at that speed.  It might help to think in terms of whole notes instead of quarters.  Also, pay attention to what the piano is comping and try to get a little communication going on with the piano.

Ratamatatt

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2002, 05:58 PM »
OK - I'm resurrecting this thread per Pops.  :)

Seriously - how do you guys comp at these insanely fast tempos/jazz ride patterns?  I have a hard enough time keeping up the right hand on the ride cymbal.  When I really want to comp, I sometimes jeopardize the tempo unless I switch the right hand pattern to straight quarter notes.

This is a very hard topic to address via a message board. Let me see if I can assemble some thoughts or maybe crank out some written music. But here are my initial thoughts:

Part of how I suggest you approach it is the same way you (probably) learned to comp at a regular tempo: by mastering a good basic "vocabulary" of phrases you can play at that tempo. At that tempo, measures are screaming by pretty fast, so instead of the one-bar or half-bar patterns you learn in books like the Chapin book, you might want to work on some 2- or 4-bar comping phrases.

Develop a few of these that you can play well and feel good about, and learn to link them together and shuffle them around, so that you at least have SOMETHING to play at that tempo. As you get more comfortable, you may be able to play in a more reactive or responsive way to what the soloist is doing, but for starters, you want to be able to lay down some authentic-sounding time behind the soloist. Does that make sense?

I'll try to write a few phrases as examples.

Also, I have a trick for playing those "ludicrous speed" tempos, but I need to figure out how to explain it via this board. I think it's similar to what Max does, a neat trick that allows you to actually play comfortably around the 400bpm mark. Let me work on finding a way to demonstrate...

Hit on 2. Repeat on 4.
(instructions found written on Mr. A's snare drum)

Offline Scott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2002, 07:24 AM »
Thanks Rat and Mr. A.  

Mr. A - I understand what you're saying; in my current situation, it really is more about having something to play because like Rat mentioned, I don't have the comprehending ability to either hear or to execute any comping at these warp speeds.  In the few times I've been in a playing situation like that, the piano player is usually only playing one note/chord every measure and it gets rather redundant either doing the same (placing a single snare hit somewhere in each measure) or trying to anticipate when he's going to play that one note next.  So, I'd really like to be able to not only react better but also contribute something for the rest of the players.  

Obviously, I need to practice more, which I'm trying to do :), but like Mr. A mentioned, I need to figure out a technique or method that helps me improve my ability to hold down that ride pattern with the right hand so I can concentrate fully on comping.  I think that's my real problem.  

Mr. A -- I'd love to hear about the technique you use at these killin' tempos if at all possible to explain here.  :)

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2002, 07:52 AM »
I need to figure out a technique or method that helps me improve my ability to hold down that ride pattern with the right hand so I can concentrate fully on comping.  I think that's my real problem.

I just made a correspondence video for one of our Cafe members in which I discuss/demo this very thing.

What I have done, and has worked for me, is that I work the left hand on the snare first.

I make sure that I can play downbeats (1, 2, 3, 4) at any point in the measure. Perhaps there will only be one stroke per bar on one of those four downbeats. I make sure I can do any combination of the above, but sticking to the criteria of ONLY downbeats. Next I do swung upbeats; same concept. The combinations of downbeats and upbeats. Then on to triplets (three note groups), then broken triplets. All of this with the ride time happening. Do all of the above with the kick drum. Then do all of the above with the hihat (foot).

As far as comping, such as in a jazz trio situation, we as drummers must be listening to the piano (or guitar), and the bass. The time needs to be locked in with the bass, while the comping needs to lock in with the piano/guitar. Playing together, listening to everyone, and leaving SPACE ... is the key to successful time keeping and comping. What for the holes in which you can fill. Listen to the soloist, and comp (compliment as well as accompany) what you hear.

Many of the "big name" players that I've worked with have said the same thing: The rely on the drums to generate the energy and give direction. One famous saxophonist I've worked with took the longest solos I've ever had to play behind. It was my job to build, and build, and build the music. It was tough, and I really don't think I was very successful to be honest. I think I built too quickly ... but hey, who would have known they guy was going to take 20+ rides through the form of the tune!  ;)

If you want a book to help you with all of this, and need something MORE than what Jim Chapin's book can offer, you might want to pick up a copy of Ron Spagnardi's book, Progressive Independence. Ron did a good job of taking you through each combination for the comping limbs. He does not, however, get into three-voice comping ... using the hihat (foot) ... it's just 2 and 4.

If you want some three-voice comping assistance, have a look at John Riley's book, Beyond Bop Drumming. I just recently started working through this book and it's got some fun stuff in there. The book comes with a CD as well. I'll try to review it in the next month or so.

One final word on the ride cymbal time keeping. Although it's important to have the coordination to maintain the standard jazz ride pattern while comping ... it's not a law or legally binding when you actually play. An old school approach, or big band genre ... yes ... but not BeBop to modern day swing.

When I was studying with Alan Dawson, he would have me outline the melody (the head of the tune) with my ride pattern. Always keeping the standard ride pattern in mind, but weaving the melody within that frame work. Also, allowing the entire kit to be part of the time keeping ... not just ride and hihat ... which is the typical approach with the novice jazzer, which I guess I still am. You can play the kit in a way that it's time keeping, but then you can play it in more of a time/comp approach. Subtle differences, and ones worthy of exploration.

Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2003, 10:17 AM »
First of all, playing the "standard" ride pattern at fast tempos is NOT what you want to learn to do. Sure, it's a great thing to practice, but it's NOT what the masters do. This topic was addressed in a few of the PASIC jazz  clinics this past November. What you want to learn to do is mix up the ride stuff you're doing when PLAYING ANY TEMPO. You won't hear Elvin or Jack Dejohnette or Tony playing a straight pattern endlessly in a tune, it's broken up - so go ahead and play those quarter notes in there. Really listen to what they're doing. So, yeah, go to your practice room and practice your "standard" pattern at 150 BPM for a week then 151 BPM the next week, but go the gig and play those broken ride patterns MUSICALLY!! That's where it's at. peace and blessings in the New Year - carlos  :o

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2003, 10:26 AM »
Quote
First of all, playing the "standard" ride pattern at fast tempos is NOT what you want to learn to do. Sure, it's a great thing to practice, but it's NOT what the masters do.

Depends on the context. For modern (bebop and thereafter) instrumental jazz, that's absolutely true.  But for a lot of swing, big band, and vocal tunes, the "traditional" ride pattern is still very much in vogue, even with the masters. Listen to Irv Cotler with Sinatra, or Jeff Hamilton with Diana Krall, etc.

Just wanted to throw that in. I'm not sure how many of us have actual bop-oriented gigs, so I wanted to point out the importance of playing in a stylistically appropriate manner. For example, just last night on my New Year's gig, I noticed how many of the songs we played sounded best with the traditional ride pattern (or brush pattern), despite the serious "jazz jones" I've been getting from the last couple days of discussions on this board.   ;)

So yes, to play "serious" jazz, you need to be able to comfortably break up the ride pattern, using it as part of your musical conversation with the soloist. But be aware of the style of the song (or gig) you're doing. Sometimes, sticking with the basics is the right thing to do.
Hit on 2. Repeat on 4.
(instructions found written on Mr. A's snare drum)

Ratamatatt

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2003, 11:33 AM »
This is a very hard topic to address via a message board. Let me see if I can assemble some thoughts or maybe crank out some written music. But here are my initial thoughts:

Part of how I suggest you approach it is the same way you (probably) learned to comp at a regular tempo: by mastering a good basic "vocabulary" of phrases you can play at that tempo. At that tempo, measures are screaming by pretty fast, so instead of the one-bar or half-bar patterns you learn in books like the Chapin book, you might want to work on some 2- or 4-bar comping phrases.

Develop a few of these that you can play well and feel good about, and learn to link them together and shuffle them around, so that you at least have SOMETHING to play at that tempo. As you get more comfortable, you may be able to play in a more reactive or responsive way to what the soloist is doing, but for starters, you want to be able to lay down some authentic-sounding time behind the soloist. Does that make sense?

I'll try to write a few phrases as examples.

Also, I have a trick for playing those "ludicrous speed" tempos, but I need to figure out how to explain it via this board. I think it's similar to what Max does, a neat trick that allows you to actually play comfortably around the 400bpm mark. Let me work on finding a way to demonstrate...

When comping at medium tempos or slower I always tried to let the overall feel of the music inspire me to respond appropriately without thinking about it too much.  But, that presumes you have the facility to execute the figures you are inspired to play.  If I understand you correctly, it seems that spreading typical one bar figures over say 2 or 4 bars may be an effective device to develope a vocabulary at high speeds.

Thanks Mr. A, that's excellent advice.

Ratamatatt

Offline Carlos Benson

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2003, 11:38 AM »
I agree with Mr. A about the fact that it depends on what style you're playing whether you play broken time ride or the standard ride pattern. But, I think the original question was referring to cats like Elvin and Tony and that's bebop and beyond, and that's broken time, nothing standard about it. Even when playing older styles or "straighter" styles you don't have to KILL yourself by playing 100,763 measures of it to convince yourself you've got it down. I still find the best way to do it is by taking your metronome up a notch every week and practicing, DON'T BE STIFF!!! loose man  8) - carlos

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re:Jazz Ride Techniques
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2016, 01:12 PM »
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Jazz Time-Keeping 101 and Beyond

 

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