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Topic: RESOTUNE  (Read 5096 times)

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Online Bart Elliott

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RESOTUNE
« on: November 29, 2005, 07:03 PM »
I wanted to start a thread about the RESOTONE. Has anyone seen the video review I did from PASIC 2005? John Roberts from Circular Science is the inventor and has actually taken the time to register as a member of the Drummer Cafe to answer any questions.

http://www.drummercafe.com/music-industry/featured-articles/pasic-2005-percussive-arts-society-international-convention.html

Offline Chip Donaho

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2005, 09:54 PM »
It's an interesting concept....But when you consider $399 vs $80 for a Drum Dial or Free by ear the cost of technology is expensive. I wouldn't mind talking to people that have used them before I drop that kind of dough. I've got enough drums that such a device may be worth it. But technology usually drops the cost over time. Look what any electronics device costs a year or two after it's been out a while. I'm certainally going to watch this thread....   :-\
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drumrjohnr

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RESOTUNE
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2005, 10:37 AM »
Agreed.... price will drop over time.  This is a brand new technology and as a small company with low inital volumes my manufacturing costs are understandably high. Bart can confirm I didn't spend a ton on a big booth at PASIC.

I will put up some user feedback comments on our website after I get units out in customers hands. I do have positve feedback from beta test but that is inappropriate to cite as actual customer feedback.

I will refrain from repeating our FAB as I am obviously biased. If you are getting good results and satified with a mechanical tuning approach there is no urgency to upgrade (he said not really meaning it).  :)

A tuned drum is a happy drum...

John Roberts
Circular Science

Ranman

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2005, 11:00 AM »
First things first...Welcome to Drummer Cafe Mr. John Roberts.

Ref: RESOTUNE

I was saying in a thread here that I would buy such a device. If you think about it, it was just a matter of time and I think it will be the way things are done.

Imagine having the exact same tuning as your hero.

I would say in time they will come preprogrammed...say in 5ths for said sizes and setups or with a USB cable so you can share tunings.

New technology always costs more (remember the first beta VCR's?).

Offline Dave Heim

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2005, 11:41 AM »
Interesting device. 

I prefer to tune tymps by humming the pitch into the head, so this is pretty appealing.
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drumrjohnr

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RESOTUNEâ„¢
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2005, 11:44 AM »
The invention should also work on tympani since resonance mode (1,1) that I use to isolate and read individual lugs is very active (actually dominant) in tympani. I will need to tweak automatic scan algorithms since (0,1) "fundemantal" mode is supressed in tympani due to closed rear chamber and may be difficult to read. I will also need to configure a different mechanical orientation scheme since the typical typani head doesn't have a higher rim to rest the tuner on.

I received a great deal of interest in this and will pursue after the basic unit is properly launched and I'm all caught up. It may require a completely different model but I can't say for sure until I get some lab time in with an actual typmani. Hopely I can start work on this sometime early-mid next year.

If it's only a minor software tweak, I will just incorporate it into the basic model.

John Roberts
circularscience.com


Offline Dave Heim

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RESOTUNEâ„¢
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2005, 11:47 AM »
John -

Are you shipping the product now?  If not yet - what's your estimated lead time?
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jameswalker

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RESOTUNE
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2005, 11:59 AM »
The invention should also work on tympani since resonance mode (1,1) that I use to isolate and read individual lugs is very active (actually dominant) in tympani.

Very cool.

Just for the sake of discussion/clarification, I'm thinking purely in terms of having a device to help "clear" the heads, not some sort of automatic device for tuning the drums to different notes in the course of a performance.

drumrjohnr

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2005, 12:04 PM »
First things first...Welcome to Drummer Cafe Mr. John Roberts.

Ref: RESOTUNEâ„¢

I was saying in a thread here that I would buy such a device. If you think about it, it was just a matter of time and I think it will be the way things are done.

Imagine having the exact same tuning as your hero.

I would say in time they will come preprogrammed...say in 5ths for said sizes and setups or with a USB cable so you can share tunings.

New technology always costs more (remember the first beta VCR's?).


Yes, I am excited about the possibilities. The concept of tuning to precise notes may seem unneccesary but it falls out of the crystal microprocessor timebase for free so I included the capability. DW has done some work with recommended tuning to specific notes and this may become more common with the capability to do it.

I do have the capability to add a USB interface to the hardware platform but didn't want to increase the cost or complexity of this first version more than it already is. I suspect most will be satisfied just to very precisely clear their lugs and  be able to repeat a good sounding drum tuning.  Tuning to precise notes is gravy, and talking to the web or computers will have to wait for a next generation product.

If the drum hero's are willing to reveal their precise tuning, it's not very difficult to just tune to those notes in manual mode. At least now we can accurately characterize what that tuning actually is.

John Roberts
circularscience.com

drumrjohnr

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RESOTUNE
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2005, 12:24 PM »
John -

Are you shipping the product now?  If not yet - what's your estimated lead time?

The last  subassembly I'm waiting for is due in within 2 weeks. I am still tweaking on the software cranking in some changes based on my experience at PASIC.  If you look at the video clip Bart shot at the show you can see a significant reading on the "drum" meter despite being in "lug" clearing mode (drum meter should have read null).  So even though I wasn't exciting the drumhead at the fundemental (0,1) the other hundred or so drums in the room were.  The good news is that the lug clearing algorithm still worked in spite of all the noise because the lug mode was still louder than the fundemental, but the automatic scan mode was confused by all the noise and externally excited modes. I am perfecting an automatic scan algorithm that is smarter and will work in relatively noisy environments. Of course there are limits to how much external noise can be tolerated but it should be pretty robust.

I don't anticipate any major hurdles to shipping well before the end of the year. I need to re-confirm all functions after I get the final production metal in, just in case there are acoustic interactions but so far everything looks very good for that timeline.

I probably should be writing code instead of spending a lot of time here but I am obviously interested in hearing everybodys thoughts and input.     

John Robert
circularscience.com

Online Bart Elliott

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RESOTUNE
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2005, 04:22 PM »
Chip71 ... mentioned the Drumdial.

I'm sure we'll agree, but let me mention this for those that may not. Tuning a drum based on tension, which is what the Drumdial does, is very different than measuring the drum based on how it sounds ... which is what the RESOTONE does.

If you needed precise measurement on the weight of something, and it was important to be as exact as possible, which scale would you prefer?


Personally, I'd want the one on the right. It's going to be the most consistent and accurate when it comes to fractions. To me, that's the difference between the DrumDial and the RESOTONE ... with the RESOTONE being better way to go.

I'm not arguing price, which does play a factor in this of course. I'm simply pointing out that IF you need to have precision, it seems that the RESOTONE would be the way to go. I don't know if I would personally need such a device at this time, but I do think it's a powerful tool and would be huge benefit to many people.

Besides it's use on timpani, I can see schools and music repair shops benefiting from the device. Just think if a school band director, who more than likely can't really tune a drum let alone a timpano, had the RESOTONE. They could quickly get a great sound out of the drums/timpani ... assuming that the drum is in good shape and the drumheads are high quality in good shape.

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2005, 05:22 PM »
Mr. Robert, given that the underside of the device has exposed paper-cone speakers and microphones (as visualized in the video when you turned the device over as part of your explanation to Bart), I would probably consider the meter as "fragile".  Will the shipping device have any sort of underside protection?  (Think PC power supply fan gratings over the speakers, or a hard plastic "bottom cover" when you store the device).

As a beginner with horrible tuning skills, I would personally find the device very useful just for being able to establish tom intervals.  (Get the heads in the correct vicinity, then tune by ear for practice).

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2005, 05:27 PM »
Mr. Roberts, given that the underside of the device has exposed paper-cone speakers and microphones (as visualized in the video when you turned the device over as part of your explanation to Bart), I would probably consider the meter as "fragile".  Will the shipping device have any sort of underside protection?  (Think PC power supply fan gratings over the speakers, or a hard plastic "bottom cover" when you store the device).

Excellent point. I'm curious if this was exposed for DEMO purposes of if that's they way it comes.

Offline Louis Russell

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RESOTUNE
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2005, 05:52 PM »
I think the studio drummer would benefit more than most.  I know I would try anything for that extra edge in the studio.
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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2005, 06:10 PM »
Mr. Robert, given that the underside of the device has exposed paper-cone speakers and microphones (as visualized in the video when you turned the device over as part of your explanation to Bart), I would probably consider the meter as "fragile".  Will the shipping device have any sort of underside protection?  (Think PC power supply fan gratings over the speakers, or a hard plastic "bottom cover" when you store the device).

As a beginner with horrible tuning skills, I would personally find the device very useful just for being able to establish tom intervals.  (Get the heads in the correct vicinity, then tune by ear for practice).

The speaker grill (bottom metal) is the last subasembly that I'm still waiting on. It is machined from flat aluminum and will protect the speakers as well as finish off the bottom of the unit nicely (flat black powder coat).

The show prototypes were hand built and the expanded metal that I used on an earlier prototype was really ugly.  I'd like to say I left the bottom open to make a better demo but the reality is I ran out of time in the preparation for the show. I was literally writing software an hour before I left for the show (I did have to pack).

I can put some pictures up on my site for any who want to see, but as I said in another post today the part isn't due for almost 2 weeks. Then I will need to run full functional tests to confirm that the acoustics of the different bottom treatment doesn't affect tuning algorithms.
 

John Roberts
circularscience.com


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RESOTUNE
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2005, 06:23 PM »
I think the studio drummer would benefit more than most.  I know I would try anything for that extra edge in the studio.

Some serious record producers will change heads several times in one session. I expect the RESOTUNE will appeal to them for repeatability and for saving them very expensive studio time. Probably paying for itself quickly.

Also touring artists will be better able to cover the drum sound (or at least the tuning) that was used on the tracking sessions.

John Roberts
circularscience.com

Offline Vintage Ludwig

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2005, 01:04 AM »
For the average drummer, money is hard to come by.  $399 is alot of quid  vs. an $80 drum dial.  Most drummers arent going to fork over 4 bills to do what their ears or an $80 dollar device will easily do.  Your device most likely will be attractive to a selected group of drummers.  Although I can easily afford 400 bucks for a device to tune my drums-I wouldnt spend that amount for something to do what my ears have been doing for 30 years!  But hey, thats just me-
Good luck with your device-

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2005, 09:01 AM »
Hey John, very cool you stopped by.

I think I could benefit from your device... I spent some time with you at PASIC 05 and the Resotune at the DC booth.

If Bart *or I* (he he he) could do a product review that would be tremendous.

I like the fact that (theoretically cause I am a bit of a skeptic at this point being a drummer for waayy too long) that for miked up applications you can get your drum heads:

1.)  dialed in perfectly to the shell fundamental (one would have to determine this on their own- I'm pretty sure the RESOTUNE can't do this)
2.)  heads dialed in perfectly to the key and scale of the tune you are playing fills in
3.)  perfect (including perfect 4ths) intervals between tom heads and toms... you could actually adjust your resonance with the amount of dissonance between batter and reso heads.

I see a lot of uses for your product, I know it would really "fatten" any band's or recording's sound.

I would buy it and I know it would compliment my knowledge of tuning already.  Sheesh... I've spent way more on software and junk that I don't use anymore.

I am skeptical though-- especially it's performance on smaller size toms (which granted are easier to tune anyways than larger diameter toms) and it's accurracy "lug to lug".

If Bart says it does what I think it can, then I'm sold.  I could use the thing.

drumrjohnr

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Re:RESOTUNE
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2005, 10:03 AM »
Hey John, very cool you stopped by.

I think I could benefit from your device... I spent some time with you at PASIC 05 and the Resotune at the DC booth.

If Bart *or I* (he he he) could do a product review that would be tremendous.

I like the fact that (theoretically cause I am a bit of a skeptic at this point being a drummer for waayy too long) that for miked up applications you can get your drum heads:

1.)  dialed in perfectly to the shell fundamental (one would have to determine this on their own- I'm pretty sure the RESOTUNE can't do this)
2.)  heads dialed in perfectly to the key and scale of the tune you are playing fills in
3.)  perfect (including perfect 4ths) intervals between tom heads and toms... you could actually adjust your resonance with the amount of dissonance between batter and reso heads.

I see a lot of uses for your product, I know it would really "fatten" any band's or recording's sound.

I would buy it and I know it would compliment my knowledge of tuning already.  Sheesh... I've spent way more on software and junk that I don't use anymore.

I am skeptical though-- especially it's performance on smaller size toms (which granted are easier to tune anyways than larger diameter toms) and it's accurracy "lug to lug".

If Bart says it does what I think it can, then I'm sold.  I could use the thing.


Hello again:

I can get a unit to Bart or his designee for review after I get all the parts in, lock the software  for release, and clear off the back-order. 

I will address your comments in order:

1) Regarding tuning to shell fundamental, correct. If you have a target note in mind just dial it up. I have not personally experimented with this (yet) but assuming there is a significant phenomenon associated with tuning the heads to the shell's resonance (more likely the whole system's resonance) that should express in a higher return for a given level of excitation. This will be readable directly on the meters. 

2) Yes.

3) Detuning the resonant head is another area rich for experimentation. I have already determined that within a range the tuning of the resonant head pulls the (0,1) resonance of the batter, without changing the (1,1) (more discussion about this on my website see "about drums" page). This is potentially very powerful as you might mimic some of the trick head effects by tuning. For example the "dot" heads add some mass at the mid point to hopefully pull the (0,1) and (1,1) modes into a 2:1 harmonic ratio, vs. the typical 1.7:1 typical for equal weight-equal tension.  Of course it isn't just that simple as tweaking the resonant head will have minimal affect on stick rebound or feel. The mind boggles at all the possibilities to explore for alternate tunings.
-------------------
Yes, there will be physical limitations to how small of a drum the standard RESOTUNE will read easily. I have tentative plans for a later generation that is rack mount and breaks out the speaker/microphone assembly into a plug-in module where different versions could be optimized for specialized applications. I may need to go that route sooner than expected to cover Tympani tuning requets which generated a lot of interest at the show.

I enjoyed talking with you and everybody at the show. I need to get back to work now... later.

John Roberts
www.circularscience.com
 

 


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