"Intuitive" drummers

[smoggrocks]

i just got my Structure cd in the mail* this weekend. this is a Terri Lyne Carrington-led quartet with Greg Osby, Adam Rogers and Jimmy Haslip. it came out in '97 or '98, i believe.

it's jaw-droppingly good. i have always been a TLC fan, and this album just cemented that admiration.

the thing that stands out to me is her total musical intuition. she has always said she considers herself an organic, instinctive drummer, and nothing could be truer. throughout the tunes, you get such sense of the call-and-response; she's forever reaching, and forever acknowledging what has just been played.

but make no mistake -- there's no loosey-goosiness anywhere. the tunes are focused, the drumming aggressive. musicality is everywhere. and her singles are blazingly fast.

when i think of intuitive drummers, i think of her, jack dejohnette and gary husband. their music just feels very 'in the moment' to me.

in another thread, christopher mentioned vinnie with respect to this 'in the momentness.' are there other players you really feel capture this essence; this spirit?

or do i sound like i've been hitting the hookah too much?



* i ordered it through spun. com. if you haven't yet checked out this music resource, do so. it's a great place to get cheaper-priced cds, and they accept trade-ins. i swapped some lame-o cds i had lying around for some good stuff.

[Christopher]

Terri Lyne is incredible.

Dennis Chambers would fit the bill.

He lives in the moment.

Keith Carlock is another.

You can hear these people creating on the fly.

Inspirational to say the least.

[paul]

I don't think that what TLC does is necessarily intuitive.  Quite the contrary, I think it comes from listening very, very hard.  That's what enables her to respond quickly and accurately to changes in the music.

[Tony]

Smoggy, you need to check out some Phish.  I suggest either "A Live One" or "Hampton Comes Alive".  Avoid the studio albums and go straight to the live stuff.  Talk about a band playing in the moment......Good stuff.

[smoggrocks]

I don't think that what TLC does is necessarily intuitive.  Quite the contrary, I think it comes from listening very, very hard.  That's what enables her to respond quickly and accurately to changes in the music.

agreed in so far as the listening. but it seems that she's able to really play what she feels in the moment in a way i don't hear in every drummer. there's a deep sensitivity that makes me really react to what she plays, and it's not just coz she's a woman.

it's probably her highly-developed technique that allows for such responsive playing. she's been doing this stuff since she's in diapers, practically, so it's a lot easier to execute.

but i know one of her goals has always been to 'play life,' not just music, and i really feel she succeeds in this.  

[jokerjkny]

I don't think that what TLC does is necessarily intuitive.  Quite the contrary, I think it comes from listening very, very hard.  That's what enables her to respond quickly and accurately to changes in the music.

+1

just watch and listen to her on Herbie's "Future 2 Future" DVD.  when herbie moves, she moves.  when herbie stops, she stops.  when herbie freaks out, she freaks out.  its unreal.

btw, and totally OT:

but i was trawling iTunes' new video store, and saw that in the jazz section TLC has a music video!  its sooooooooo early '90s, with the Z styled 'fros, but man, she can play.

[James Walker]

I don't think that what TLC does is necessarily intuitive.  Quite the contrary, I think it comes from listening very, very hard.  That's what enables her to respond quickly and accurately to changes in the music.

We must have differing definitions (or applications) of the word, "intuitive," when it comes to playing music.  I don't think that intuitive playing and "listening hard" are mutually exclusive in any way - actually, it's just the opposite, in my experience.

My most "intuitive" playing happens when I'm listening most effectively to the other musicians.  It's at those moments that I'm not getting caught up in consciously thinking things like, "Maybe I'll play a fill here..." or "...should I switch from the hi hat to the ride cymbal?"  It's when I'm listening really well that my intuitions really pay off, and that I play my best - especially when we're talking about improvised music.

[drumwild]

TLC is also a drummer who studied Percussion Arts in college.

I saw her in a clinic with Sheila E. It was the "trained" drummer (TLC) versus the "street" drummer (E). It was almost like a drum-off type of thing.

You would have loved it, because everyone was so busy drooling over Sheila E that I was the only one talking to TLC. It's the power of celebrity.

It's possible that you can be classically trained and still be intuitive. However, most classically trained musicians I know rely heavily on what is written, and lack that "jam" ability. Having seen her perform, I think she does have an intuitive quality.

[James Walker]

It's possible that you can be classically trained and still be intuitive. However, most classically trained musicians I know rely heavily on what is written, and lack that "jam" ability.

I think many classical programs (especially at the University level) at the very least fail to encourage students to cultivate their instincts, and at the very worst, often quash students' ability to call upon their instincts.  I know that I was fortunate to find several teachers while I was in grad' school who went against the grain, and who helped me to better tune into my instincts, and not only for jazz playing.

[paul]

I think that "intuition" here is the result of great technique, musical sense, and big ears.  I sometimes find when I play with people for a while that we start playing things in spontaneous unison without prior agreement.  This happens, I believe, because we know each other well enough to anticipate what each other will do and to anticipate a response.

The fact that it happens seemingly without thought makes it seem intuitive, but it's really the result of a lot of concentration and effort.

Also, in TLC's case as well as with others I've seen, her great chops mean that she's not thinking about licks, but thinking about music and letting her hands and feet express the music she hears in her head.

[felix]

Hitting the hookah- funny stuff.

I'll have to give the "Structure" tracks a listen.  Sounds like great stuff!

[Pipus]

I think many classical programs (especially at the University level) at the very least fail to encourage students to cultivate their instincts, and at the very worst, often quash students' ability to call upon their instincts.  I know that I was fortunate to find several teachers while I was in grad' school who went against the grain, and who helped me to better tune into my instincts, and not only for jazz playing.

I agree with your statement about college a university music programs. I didn't sudied music in college, but many of my friends did. All of them, specially drummers, have the same problem, they think that jazz is the god of all musics, and that you play the standards as they were recorded. They even memorize the solos.

There is nothing wrong with learning standars, and playing them, but it can become a liability in the improvisation department.

My opinion of intuitive playing, is that it's a direct result of good listening, and internalizing the flow or structure of the music (unless is totaly impromptu). When you stop thinking of the technical part of music, and try to complement what others are doing, in terms of dinamics, intensity, and locking in with them, the drumming can be an extention of the music, rather than only the beat.

I was never encouraged to learn jazz standards (other than a fake book of big band music, no Blue Bossa, or stuff like that), so I have to ask the time signature and rythmic style of any standard. Some of my friend drummers then tell me that wasn't the way to play that song, it has this and that fill, and the solo goes like this, and I tell them, if you want to hear that, go and play the record, your not supposed to be a drum machine, but a musician.

Intuitive playing comes from good listening to the music and to your heart.

Pipus

[Tony]

As long as playing "intuitively" is not code for not bothering to learn how to play a style authentically.  Pipius, while I genreally agree with you about improv, it's essential, IMHO to understand and have experience in studying and playing a particular style before you can dismiss the accepted norm.

There's nothing I dislike more than watching people play jazz, improv rock, "jam band" etc.  who have no idea what they are doing.  Recently, a young group filled an opening slot at a club in Auburn for us.  They were of the jam band variety, and played 5 songs in an hour set.  They had no rhyme or reason, just esoteric noodling with no real structure or direction.  They quoted all the notable jam band cliches about playing in the moment, stretching the improv sections to alow the music to happen, blah, blah blah.  But it was evident to me, my band and several patrons, that these guys had no true understanding of the why behind these notions, or the amount of work necessary to get there.

It seems to me that a lot of weaker players rely on the attitude of "we're breaking the rules" when it comes to improv playing, or particular styles, as a means to excuse poor playing.  

You can't break the rules until you know what your doing and why.    

[James Walker]

I agree with your statement about college a university music programs. I didn't sudied music in college, but many of my friends did. All of them, specially drummers, have the same problem, they think that jazz is the god of all musics, and that you play the standards as they were recorded. They even memorize the solos.

There is nothing wrong with learning standars, and playing them, but it can become a liability in the improvisation department.

I couldn't disagree more.  "Standards" are part of the common language of jazz musicians - the "standard repertoire."  Studying standards not only allows a jazz student to learn this repertoire, but it allows them to develop specific areas of their playing - the ability to improvise over certain chord changes (rhythm changes, blues, ii-V-I's, etc.), styles, structure, etc..

Learning (studying, analyzing, memorizing, being able to perform) the recorded solos of other jazz musicians is a valuable learning tool, in terms of learning the phrasing and vocabulary of the music.  It's like learning a foreign language, by learning common phrases, and developing your accent by mimicing the accents of others who already speak the language well.  Eventually, you internalize the language, and start to express yourself through that language, through your own individual use of the vocabulary - but you've got to learn the language first.

My opinion of intuitive playing, is that it's a direct result of good listening, and internalizing the flow or structure of the music

I would agree with this statement.

I was never encouraged to learn jazz standards (other than a fake book of big band music, no Blue Bossa, or stuff like that), so I have to ask the time signature and rythmic style of any standard. Some of my friend drummers then tell me that wasn't the way to play that song, it has this and that fill, and the solo goes like this...

Not knowing the "standards" repertoire can only be a handicap, if you're expected to perform these songs.  By studying each of these standard compositions, you learn what makes each one unique, and your understanding of the music is increased.  Blind allegiance to certain elements simply because a song was performed a certain way by a certain artist on a certain recording, is a mistake as well.  However, just because something can be misused opr misapplied, doesn't mean that learning it is automatically a negative.

Somehow, I get the feeling that my concept of "intuitive" playing falls somewhere between yours and Paul's.  One's intuition isn't some mystical force - we can inform and influence our intuition through study, and through the accumulation of playing experience.  I strive to play as intuitively as possible, especially when performing any sort of improvised music (not just jazz) - but that intuition is strongly informed by my years of study and experience.

At least, that's my take on it.  I suspect that this is going to be one of those threads where I disagree with everybody else...   ::)

(...except Tony.)  ;)

[Pipus]

To clarify, I wasn't refering to a breaking the rules kind of attitude. Whta a tried to say was that, some music programs don't teach how to play, but program students what to play. One thing is to take any Coletrain song and play it in style, trying to inject some of you in it, and other is to play it exactly like Elvin Jones did, note by note.

I wasn't teach to play that way, nor was encourage to LEARN any jazz standard, but rather to respect the style of music being played. I think that Coltrane (RIP)  and Elvin would be happier hearing someone playing one of their song respecting the style, but not trying to duplicate their playing note bye note.

That's what I was trying to say.

Pipus

[Mister Acrolite]

To clarify, I wasn't refering to a breaking the rules kind of attitude. Whta a tried to say was that, some music programs don't teach how to play, but program students what to play.

That's the student's fault, not the schools. School can only offer information; the student needs to DO something with that information, not just be a receptacle for it.

Becoming an artist is hard work - just going to a good school won't make you one. You have to take what you're taught and make a leap with it.

[Pipus]

James, I don't think we disagree that much, due to the fact that a was talking abot your statment of clasical/music programs of college and universities.

I agree with you about the need to study what is considered standard musical style language, so that you get a better understanding of the style, whete it came from , what is going on, etc. When I say that i wasn't encourage to learn the standards, I meant it in the robotic way some musical programs, or students do.

When I stated that I ask the time signature and rythmic style of the standard to be played, I do it beacuse I live in Puerto Rico, and some people change tha standards to play them in Latin Jazz form. For example, some tones writen in 3/4, are changed to 6/8 afro-cubban style rythms, and some 4/4 songs are changed to songo or salsa.

Mr. Acrolite, I agree in part with your statement. The only problem (not with your statement), is that some students (I'm a teacher) don't have that kind of initiative, and is up to the teacher to push them in that direction. Unfortunetle enough, 95% of the professors in the music programs here in Puerto Rico, don't want to do it, either because they don't give a @$%#, or because they were taught to always play it safe.

Once I had a "teacher" who denigrated the students because they couldn't do this or that, and even did it to me. I accept that I didn't practice his lessons on Ted Reed's Syncopation, which I already studied about 9 years before, was playing every weekend, and the "teacher" wasn't using the book as a learning tool, but as a warm up. He was the only teacher I had a music college digree.

Pipus

PS Mr. Acrolite, is that a clip mounted fan on your hi-hat stand (followed the drummersworl link on your signature).

[kohei]

Although I haven't heard too much from him lately, I gotta say Leon Parker. Big ears and the ability to adapt any feel or time signature to the underlying pulse of tune. He has such an organic approach to metric modulation that you never get the sense that he's just "trying @$%# out", but he gets everyone listening to hear the same implication that he heard and sent him in that direction. He's definitely a cat who "distills meaning from the vapor of nuance."

Jorge Rossy, Tom Rainey, Tim Pleasant, Eric Halvorson, Rob Garcia...

[Paicey]

My vote for intuitive player of the last 3 decades is Narada Michael Waldon. Ive heard him play everything from whacked out jazz to pop to fusion and he never fails to sound UNlike any other choppsters ive heard. Alot of guys like Weckl, Vinnie, Chambers, etc sound so schooled (by the book) to me compared to Narada. I absolutely love all the players mentioned but Narada just does it for me.

[DWdrmr]

"HIghway Song"....fer instance...Jeff Beck....agreed

[DWdrmr]

I'll further abuse this post..the other night, when we got to the end of LZ's "Ocean" ( we don't use the outro)...I started a  7/8 thing and the bass player joined in..totally spontanious..lasted for as long as the song, at least...it just felt right. This was a rehearsal. I think this sort of thing happens when you're comfortable playing with each other. It was pretty cool...

[ken4musiq]

I think many classical programs (especially at the University level) at the very least fail to encourage students to cultivate their instincts, and at the very worst, often quash students' ability to call upon their instincts.  I know that I was fortunate to find several teachers while I was in grad' school who went against the grain, and who helped me to better tune into my instincts, and not only for jazz playing.>>

I think that there is a huge problem with the academic approach to music education. Most academic institutions are a very bad place for young players to be. I worked at a Community College for two years until I was let go.  I was working very hard to cultivate students' instincts and relate the curriculum to students' needs. Ninety-five percent of my students were passing with a 'c' or better.  They let me go and kept the teachers who were failing half the class but still pushing the standard cannonical repertoire. Academia is so out of touch with contemporary culture that it has relegated itself to oblivian.  There is a joke that academics use that "academia is so political because the stakes are so low." In actuality, the stakes are very high for most students.

[PJSdrum]

This has been a very interesting thread with some thoughtful comments on all sides of the discussion. Some great examples of intuitive drummers listed. I'd like to throw Airto Moreira into the discussion. He's incredible at creating musical moments wether he's playing all his percussion instruments or on the set.