Paiste Chat

[Steve "Smitty" Smith]

Paiste lovers: Weigh in on recent acquistions, wish list, or anything else.

Paiste non-lovers or detractors: Tell us why you don't care for Paiste.

[lopan]

Not quite a year ago, I got a set of 15" Giant Beat hats. For years I had used a set of 15" Zildjian New Beats and I never thought I'd find a set I liked more, but I think the Paiste hats have more of the qualities I'm looking for these days.

[Steve "Smitty" Smith]

Cool!  Giant Beat is one of the few Paiste lines I do not own.  Have you tried the Twenty series?  People are raving about them-- especially the hats.

I'm partial to to Signatures and 2002s.  The Signature crashes in particular are outstanding in my opinion.

I worked as a warehouse grunt at the Paiste America headquarters in Brea, California back in 1990-91.  I was like a kid in a candy store. I was the only drummer on the small warehouse crew.  The two other guys did not share my enthusiasm for cymbals, which may well have been tires for all they cared.  Good guys, though!

[Susan Wood]

I have a Paiste  17 inch thin crash which I like but may sell to buy an Instanbul Agop crash or a Sabian Artisan crash.
I like the Paiste crash when I just tap it as opposed to crashing it, as the sustain is too long; a really good cymbal though.

[lopan]

Cool!  Giant Beat is one of the few Paiste lines I do not own.  Have you tried the Twenty series?  People are raving about them-- especially the hats.

I'm partial to to Signatures and 2002s.  The Signature crashes in particular are outstanding in my opinion.

I worked as a warehouse grunt at the Paiste America headquarters in Brea, California back in 1990-91.  I was like a kid in a candy store. I was the only drummer on the small warehouse crew.  The two other guys did not share my enthusiasm for cymbals, which may well have been tires for all they cared.  Good guys, though!

Oh, I couldn't have worked there... they'd be constantly yelling at me to leave the cymbals alone. What a place for a drummer to work.

I also have a 20" Giant Beat Crash-Ride. It's a bit too washy as a ride and it also takes more force than I would like to get it to open up as a crash, but there are those occasions when it's perfect. 

I tend to lean toward thin and paper thin crashes and in October I snagged a 20" Ludwig Paiste thin crash off of eBay.  It's not bad at all, but it has a much darker voice than my other cymbals.

[Chonson]

I'm so torn on Paiste and have been for the last year or so.

On one hand, I've done a few recording projects where that high end sparkle has been great. Also the Giant Beat 24" is a beauty when you need a non-trashy wash.

On the other hand, I am a huge fan of the super dark crazy jazz cymbals - Istanbul Agop and some of the newer Zildjians (with another nod to the Armand line as well). There have been a few Ks of late that knock me over (K Dry Complex I & II; K Custom Dark, etc) and so many Istanbuls are just incredible. (Mel Lewis for old As; the magic of SE/Signature/Om/Epoch/25th/etc).

It's hard to deny Paiste Signatures for a beautiful pop sparkle, the 14" Twenty hats are IMO the best hats they've ever made; the previously mentioned 24" GB. My complaint of late, and why I was so happy to take the Paistes down after the last EP finished recording, is that there's nothing in the Paiste range that has a complex trashiness and, for want of a better word, attitude. Bright and clear? Nothing finer. But nothing that just has the potential to really open up nasty or have a real raw edge.

It's just my taste at the moment and I'm sure at some point I'll be ready to change back and go in that direction, but for now they just feel a little too polite and inside the lines for what I'm looking for.

[Mark Counts]

Talking about Paiste is not been something I stayed away from on here. I have been playing them since 1976. I have had many opportunities to play the other two are three and have even owned some of them. I always went back to Paiste. That is probably why I own 17 of them. 2002's, Signature, Sound formula and one 3000 series. In all these years, I have never broke one of these cymbals. They give me the sound that I want to hear.
     Nutty

[Danno]

Paiste non-lovers or detractors: Tell us why you don't care for Paiste.

Here's what's always bothered me about Paistes, and I've got to say I've never owned one and this is why - they're made with the same (cheap?) bronze alloy as lower-end cymbals by Sabian, Zildjian etc. Sabian B8s are, on the face of it, basically the same alloy as high-end Paistes.

Can anyone explain this to me? Granted, this is all theoretical (read that as 'all in my head'), but how can they sound great when they're made with a lower-end alloy? Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong.

[David Jung]

I worked as a warehouse grunt at the Paiste America headquarters in Brea, California back in 1990-91.  I was like a kid in a candy store. ...

So that's where some of the fingerprints on my Paiste's came from.   ;)

A couple of years ago there was an orchestra setting up to play in the sanctuary and some guy, a school band instructor I think, asked me why I was using cheap Japanese cymbals...   They were all Signatures except for one 2002.

I've used Paiste since getting my first set with some 602's back in the 70's...the 602's are on my home practice set right now. 

[eardrum]

.....
I've used Paiste since getting my first set with some 602's back in the 70's...the 602's are on my home practice set right now. 

So how much do you want for your home practice set? Including cymbals..

[Bob Dias]

Paiste lovers: Weigh in on recent acquistions, wish list, or anything else.

Paiste non-lovers or detractors: Tell us why you don't care for Paiste.

Love the sound, especially the Sigs and the DE lines, but quite frankely, I can't/don't want to afford them.  So, I get by quite nicely with my mix of mehmet, agop and Bos's (and some old A's)

[Tim van de Ven]

Here's what's always bothered me about Paistes, and I've got to say I've never owned one and this is why - they're made with the same (cheap?) bronze alloy as lower-end cymbals by Sabian, Zildjian etc. Sabian B8s are, on the face of it, basically the same alloy as high-end Paistes.

Can anyone explain this to me? Granted, this is all theoretical (read that as 'all in my head'), but how can they sound great when they're made with a lower-end alloy? Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong.

Here's what's happened: you believed marketing instead of your own ears.

Paiste has been making magnificent cymbals using a B8 alloy since the 1960s, long before other companies began to start the "sheet bronze" versus "cast bronze" campaign of b.s. That marketing campaign began in the 1980s, as I recall.

First: all bronze is cast. Paiste outsources the smelting aspects of the alloys that they use. They use flat discs as the start of their cymbal-making process; this was true with the B20 alloy 602 and Sound Creation lines as well as the current Twenty Series (note that other cymbal companies using B20 call this alloy "cast", in an effort to claim that it is somehow superior to other cymbal alloys). 

Check out how they work their alloys  http://www.paiste.com/e/about_tour.php?menuid=313]HERE

Second: Any alloy has sonorous properties.  I am friends with Matt Nolan; a cymbalsmith from England. On his first trip through Canada and the US, he stopped in Montreal to show me some of his creations. He's made cymbals with B5, NS12, Aluminium (!!!!), Stainless steel, to mention a few alloys. The ride made of stainless steel was not like anything I expected; the hats were outstanding as well. If I had prejudged the alloys, then I would have missed out on some pretty outstanding work. After all, they don't make beginner cymbals from Stainless Steel, they make sinks and faucets out of it! And I think that there is some aluminium on the side of my house....

Third: Trust Your Ears If it sounds good, it sounds good; period. It doesn't matter who made it or what it's made with; if you like it, then it's a good cymbal.

Come to think of it, I believe that our very own Mr A. has a Sabian B8 cymbal in his set-up (and he's an endorser). He can play anything that he wants....and I suspect that he does just that...

[Danno]

Here's what's happened: you believed marketing instead of your own ears.

My opinion has nothing to do with marketing. I've owned Sabian and Zildjian cymbals made of B8 alloy and they sounded cheap and tinny to me compared to B20 offerings by the same companies. I'm wondering what's different about Paistes.

[Tim van de Ven]

My opinion has nothing to do with marketing. I've owned Sabian and Zildjian cymbals made of B8 alloy and they sounded cheap and tinny to me compared to B20 offerings by the same companies. I'm wondering what's different about Paistes.

Ahhh, but it does have everything to do with marketing!

You posted this:

they're made with the same (cheap?) bronze alloy as lower-end cymbals by Sabian, Zildjian etc

Why do you believe that a particular alloy is "cheap"?

B8 is not a "cheap" alloy. Any alloy can sound bad or good (subjectively).

It's not the alloy, it's how the alloy is worked.

[eardrum]

Well, objectively, tin is approximate twice as expensive than copper (fact check needed). B8 has less than B20 so would be less or cheaper I guess. That doesn't say anything about sound qualities per se but it partly explains why B8 is typically less expensive.  Raw materials are an important part of cymbal making but obviously not everything.  Paiste has some unique magic they pull off with their cymbals and I think each mfc claims their own magic is the best.  If they can do it with B8, great.  I don't know how much of the price you pay goes to the raw material vs the "magic" but it would be interesting to see a break down by manufacturer.  Any insider information to fill in the blanks?
Mfc        %Magic     % Materials   %Overhead   %Profit
Sabian    xx                 xx            xx                 xx
Zildjian    xx                 xx            xx                 xx
Paiste     xx                 xx            xx                 xx
etc..

[David Stanoch]

I've never gotten into the whole alloy/formula thing regarding cymbals personally because, mainly, I don't make them I play them! I really don't care if it has "Mattel" stamped on it if I like the sound, and I have a cymbal that proves that too!

I use my ears. It has never failed me. There are so many companies making great sounding cymbals today that I think the competition has really ramped up the quality of every company's inventory and we are the winners.

Anyone who has followed any of my threads here knows I've been with Paiste for many years now. Why? I love their sound and I love the incredible range of sounds they offer. It just works for me.

When I was offered a place in their family by Rich Mangicaro and Ed Clift I leapt at the chance because I had their cymbals in my set up already. Not exclusively, but I knew I could make a commitment like that and it wouldn't compromise my sound, it would enhance it! I'm very comfortable in their wheelhouse and thankful for their support.

Paiste has always been the underdog it seems. Everywhere I play I get compliments on my cymbals - from the players and the audience. And there are always people who say "Those are Paiste cymbals? I didn't know they made cymbals like that!" I hear that from great drummers who play other brands as well.

To wrap on Smitty's original question, I love the Traditionals, Dark Energy Signatures and Twenty Series to death for my jazz, world, folk, and some funk work. I use Signatures, Giant Beats, 2002's and Twentys for my rock and show work as well.

No rules though. I usually go by how bright or dark, or acoustic vs. electric, the music I'm playing is as well as the venue I'm performing/recording in.

If you listen to the mash up of tracks on the feature page Bart was kind enough to showcase me at here (http://www.drummercafe.com/featured-musician/drummer-percussionist/david-stanoch.html), you'll hear a mix of all of the above on every track. 98% of what's there is Paiste, plus a prized old Turkish K, and the Mattel cymbal I mentioned above. Have a listen. I hope you like the music, I have no doubt you'll like the cymbals sounds.

The bottom line? Play what you like. I certainly do.

[Danno]

Why do you believe that a particular alloy is "cheap"?

Maybe if you'd actually read my last post, where I said "I've owned Sabian and Zildjian cymbals made of B8 alloy and they sounded cheap and tinny to me compared to B20 offerings by the same companies" you could figure this out instead of once again insisting I'm a hapless victim of marketing.

[Tim van de Ven]

Maybe if you'd actually read my last post, where I said "I've owned Sabian and Zildjian cymbals made of B8 alloy and they sounded cheap and tinny to me compared to B20 offerings by the same companies" you could figure this out instead of once again insisting I'm a hapless victim of marketing.

It's unfortunate that you are being confrontational in your replies. I'm actually trying to help you.

You had posted "but how can they sound great when they're made with a lower-end alloy? Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong." You were saying that  an alloy was/is "cheap" and "lower-end". I was pointing you to where you have heard or begun to believe that a particular alloy could possibly be "cheap" or "lower end" and it comes from two companies: Zildjian and Sabian and their marketing departments. If Sabian and Zildjian choose not to make a professional cymbal from B8, that does not mean that the alloy is "cheap". For example, when Paiste stopped using B20 in 1989, did that mean that B20 was inferior or cheap? No.

Put it another way; there are student lines made from NS12 (nickel-silver). Does that mean that Paiste's gongs are made from an inferior alloy because budget cymbals are also made from that alloy? No.

All cymbal companies make student/budget lines from a wide array of available alloys; Sabian even makes a budget line, X20, out of B20. Does this mean that B20 is a cheap alloy because budget/student cymbals are made from it? No.

It's not the alloy, it's how the alloy is worked. A bad sounding cymbal does not negate an alloy, a process, nor a manufacturer.

Check this out and it might answer your questions:
http://www.paiste.com/e/about_tour.php?menuid=313

By the way, I'm not trying to make you "turn Paiste" nor am I throwing swords at the other companies; all companies use creative marketing to sell their products.

[lopan]

I've never gotten into the whole alloy/formula thing regarding cymbals personally because, mainly, I don't make them I play them! I really don't care if it has "Mattel" stamped on it if I like the sound, and I have a cymbal that proves that too!

I do this myself in that I also use Zildjian and would use any other cymbal if it had the sound I wanted. The Giant Beat Hats I'm using just make me want to play them. My favorite crashes though happen to be Armand series Zildjian, but if some other cymbal maker made something similar, I'd have no problem using them. I couldn't care less about what alloy they're made from as long as they sound good.

[eardrum]

I've never gotten into the whole alloy/formula thing regarding cymbals personally because, mainly, I don't make them I play them! I really don't care if it has "Mattel" stamped on it if I like the sound, and I have a cymbal that proves that too!

I use my ears. It has never failed me. .........

David,
Not exactly on topic but I think it can be helpful to consider the materials when deciding which to use?  For example, I'll definitely consider the snare drum construction when looking for a particular sound, e.g., metal vs wood, piccolo vs 7x15, staved vs ply, etc..  In the same way, I think that the materials used in cymbal making have an impact in how you approach choosing one and that can be helpful.  I doubt if Paiste wants to sound exactly like ZildjosphorusInstanian so they use different materials, a different process, etc. AND, materials definitely affects the cost which is still a decision driver for many of us.  We certainly can't sample every cymbal, every snare, etc. even though playing a lot of different ones is important (no sub for experience).  And since you are in the Paiste family your choices fall within their products, except for a rare exception as stated. I'm not saying you are compromised in any way but it's not purely choosing by ear with blindfold.  As you've stated, there are tons of great cymbals being made and I don't doubt Paiste produces their fare share of them and plenty for your arsenal.  I do think it helps to know something about their construction. Having said that, what we know regarding the materials and construction techniques seems generally limited to what the mfc want to tell us. They aren't going to reveal their "centuries old" trade secrets. I for one would be very interested to hear more about how the materials affect sound AND cost. If you don't know or don't care, that's ok too. Some of us are curious.