Paiste Chat

[Mister Acrolite]

There are two materials I think are important when choosing cymbals.

My right ear, and my left ear.

Nothing else matters to me. That's why my cymbals are a mix ranging from the most expensive to the cheapest cymbals in the Sabian line.

And prior to becoming a Sabian endorser, that's why my cymbals were a mix ranging from the most expensive to the cheapest of the main cymbal brands available, which included a variety of Paiste's product lines.

I couldn't care less about the alloy or the weight. I just want cymbals to sound good. And in my experience, good sounding cymbals are made from a wide variety of alloys and manufacturing processes.

I suspect that if you cared less about things like alloys, product lines and brands, you would discover a lot more good sounding cymbals.

[eardrum]

....

I suspect that if you cared less about things like alloys, product lines and brands, you would discover a lot more good sounding cymbals.

You could be right and it might explain why I'm an engineer and not a full time musician. I for one don't use one brand or family and have no allegiance to an alloy - yikes, that would be weird, unless I was a trader in the metals exchange...  I am a fan of physics, of process, etc...  as well as music and have a "need to know" addiction - sorry (not really).  I certainly would play a cardboard cymbal if it sounded better than what I have, but come on, we know something about the difference between cardboard and bronze.  We also know something about B8 vs B20.  If one manufacturer turns out a B8 product and it's great - hallelujah.  If another one uses the same material and turns out a piece of #$%@, I'm curious. Same goes for B20, aluminum, cardboard, etc.. If you prefer to sample all cymbals with a blindfold and get great results when shopping - vunderbar! That's not me.

Danno asked if anyone can explain why Sabian/Zild's B8 products are "low end" and sound it (for the most part) while Paiste can produce "high end" quality with the same material.  I've heard the question dismissed, Danno criticized for falling into the marketing hype, but no specific answer.  I like the question.  It appears no one has an answer.  We've talked a lot about heads or woods or sizes. Why not cymbal alloys? You guys make it sound like such a mysterious thing and maybe cymbal making is more "mysterious". I'm confident there's some physics in there somewhere.

[Mister Acrolite]

You could be right and it might explain why I'm an engineer and not a full time musician. I for one don't use one brand or family and have no allegiance to an alloy - yikes, that would be weird, unless I was a trader in the metals exchange...  I am a fan of physics, of process, etc...  as well as music and have a "need to know" addiction - sorry (not really).  I certainly would play a cardboard cymbal if it sounded better than what I have, but come on, we know something about the difference between cardboard and bronze.  We also know something about B8 vs B20.  If one manufacturer turns out a B8 product and it's great - hallelujah.  If another one uses the same material and turns out a piece of #$%@, I'm curious. Same goes for B20, aluminum, cardboard, etc.. If you prefer to sample all cymbals with a blindfold and get great results when shopping - vunderbar! That's not me.

Danno asked if anyone can explain why Sabian/Zild's B8 products are "low end" and sound it (for the most part) while Paiste can produce "high end" quality with the same material.  I've heard the question dismissed, Danno criticized for falling into the marketing hype, but no specific answer.  I like the question.  It appears no one has an answer.  We've talked a lot about heads or woods or sizes. Why not cymbal alloys? You guys make it sound like such a mysterious thing and maybe cymbal making is more "mysterious". I'm confident there's some physics in there somewhere.

The reason I don't have an answer is that I reject the premise. I've been using various B8 cymbals in my kit for probably 25 years. I'm fortunate enough to get to perform and tour with some pretty substantial acts, and I have been a Sabian endorser since 1988 or 89. Bottom line, I could play whatever cymbal I want.

And for many applications - in particular for splashes and chinas - I prefer cymbals made from B8. Often from the "budget" line. I've got Sabian B8 and B8Pro cymbals in my gigging cymbal bag as we speak.

I do agree that Paiste was the first to make pro-sounding cymbals in their less expensive cymbal lines. I think they blazed the trail in that respect. I used many low-priced Paistes in the 80s, being a big fan of their 505 and 404 lines.

But again I come back to this: I just care how they sound. And because I have NOT found a solid correlation between metal type and "good" sound, I've remained open to the notion that it's far more than the alloy that makes a cymbal sound good - or bad. And as a result, I've stayed open to trying any cymbal, regardless of price range or production method. Some of my cymbals are from the absolute most expensive lines Sabian offers - I'm a sucker for their "Signature" rides in particular. But those rides are in the same bag with a couple of the cheapest cymbals Sabian makes. And you know what? They sound GREAT together.

Fair enough?

[Vintage Ludwig]

I have owned and played pAisTe since the late 70s.  Ive played and owned other mfgs, but its pAisTe that Im ultimately happy with.  602s and early 70s 2002s preferably.  I enjoy how paiste in general compliment each other., and thier sound is consistent-no matter what line you are playing.

Not going to bash anybody-but its pAisTe only for me.....

[eardrum]

...................

Fair enough?

More than fair. It's helpful. 

[eardrum]

And this wikipedia article seems pretty informative about the Paiste line for those like me who are unfamiliar with the different products and which alloy is used...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paiste

[Danno]

The following is from a post by Mike Skiba, Master Cymbalsmith, on the "Cymbalholic" forum, where he describes the difference between B8 and B20 bronze:

"...cymbal bronze has a fairly high melting point, in excess of 1800 degrees F. When cast (B20) cymbals are annealled they are heated to 1200-1400 degrees F (dark red glow) and then instantly quenched in water...lots of water.

This is foundry work...not the sort of thing to try in the kitchen at home.

The principle is that heating to just below the melting point (this is known as a transformation point) gets the metal into a soft state wherein the metallic grains are loosely structured, similar to baking bread. The external "crust" tends to crystallize differently than the internal metal...the effect of variation of exposure to heat. The quick change of temperature "captures" the metal in its softened state. The outer surface skin of the metal is the first to come into contact with the cooling water, so it is here that the extreme change is most dramatic. The internal (core) metal is slower to cool because it is insulated by the outer crust. The effect of variation of exposure to heat happens again, this time reversed. The final result is is a multi-layered arrangement of progressively harder/softer material.
Herein lies the key difference between cast (B20) and sheet (B8) cymbals. Sheet metal does not share this layered configuration, instead being much more uniform in hardness/density throughout. With sheet metal there is no external layer of harder insulating crust.

B8 has a "simple" hardness.
B20 has a "complex" hardness."

[Chip Donaho]

This is foundry work....

Yes it is. I understand what everyone is saying because I worked in a foundry for a few years. But like others have said, "I use my ears".... I have both Paiste and Zildjian and some are rare. But I chose them because of what I heard over cost.
My wife would agree with that statement.  :P

[eardrum]

The following is from a post by Mike Skiba, Master Cymbalsmith, on the "Cymbalholic" forum, where he describes the difference between B8 and B20 bronze:
........

Fascinating. I started digging around yesterday and found the same post.  It's sure interesting to hear from someone actually working the metal. 

[Danno]

Fascinating. I started digging around yesterday and found the same post.  It's sure interesting to hear from someone actually working the metal. 

Yeah, I found it really interesting too.

Here's what I don't get - I've read threads here in DC that go on for DAYS about materials. Take snare drums - off the top of my head, you've got maple vs. mahogany vs. birch vs. maple/birch vs. birch/basswood vs. poplar vs. oak vs. steel vs. aluminum vs. brass vs. chrome-over-brass vs. 16-ply vs. one-ply steam-bent vs. stave shell vs. butcher block vs. fiberglass vs. acrylics etc. etc. etc. - and that's just the shells. Everyone has opinions, but NO ONE EVER SAYS SNARE SHELL MATERIALS DON'T MATTER. Then we talk about CYMBALS and it's "Alloy does not matter, Grasshopper. Put on blindfold and start swinging, that how you find worthy cymbal."

I don't buy it. It feels kinda like political correctness to me. Like if I said "I think Jennifer Aniston is more attractive than Susan Boyle" I'd hear "You don't get it, man. Jennifer Aniston is all marketing. Susan Boyle probably has more to offer overall than Jennifer Aniston."

Fair enough. And whoever thinks that, if we four ever end up on a double date, you get Susan Boyle.

Another thing - I know Mr. A uses Sabian B8s in his setup but I'd bet money that except for chinas or other 'specialty' cymbals, he doesn't use any B8s over 14" in diameter. I have a reason for saying that. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll erase all my posts, sell my drums and move to Tibet. And Tim vdv, don't gloat, I'll be taking you with me.  :o

Still don't know why Paiste uses B8 for high-end cymbals. Anyone?

[Mister Acrolite]

Another thing - I know Mr. A uses Sabian B8s in his setup but I'd bet money that except for chinas or other 'specialty' cymbals, he doesn't use any B8s over 14" in diameter. I have a reason for saying that. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll erase all my posts, sell my drums and move to Tibet. And Tim vdv, don't gloat, I'll be taking you with me.  :o

The only reason you're right is because I never got around to replacing my beloved 18" B8Pro thin crash, which I gigged on for years in the 90s until it finally cracked. There's a couple of shots of me playing it on my website - as my primary crash (look for photos when I still had hair).

But let me clarify a point: I'm NOT saying alloy doesn't matter. I'm saying there's no black/white determination of good-sounding alloy versus bad-sounding alloy.

Some B8s sound great. Some sound like crap.

Similarly, some old Turkish K's sound great. And some sound like crap.

You're choosing an odd - and frankly, pretty snarky - way of interpreting the responses I've given, which are based on a long career during which I've always taken my sound VERY seriously.  I have played Ziljdian, Paiste and Sabian extensively over the last 35+ years, and was sharing my conclusions, based on having played all the major brands AND most of the budget ranges of each brand (although I never much liked Zildjian's budget cymbals, and instead tended to use some of their factory seconds, sold as "Zilcos." I still own a couple of those).

I'm sorry you don't find my advice helpful, and that nobody here has corroborated your all-or-nothing stance that the only thing that determines a cymbal's potential quality is its alloy. That simply hasn't been my experience.

Still don't know why Paiste uses B8 for high-end cymbals. Anyone?

Probably because it sounds freaking great. I think Paiste makes some of the best sounding, most consistent cymbals around, and happily played a variety of Paiste cymbals over a significant portion of my professional career.

If you don't like the way they sound, fair enough. I for one always thought that Jeff Porcaro, Stewart Copeland and Alex Van Halen had pretty darn good taste in cymbal sounds - you may disagree.

I've said this before, in some variation or another: There's theory, and there's the way things really are.

You may theorize to your heart's content that only certain alloys can produce good sounds. My experience over the decades has proven - at least to my own satisfaction - that it's not that simple.

An example: for me, a 20" bass drum is NOT a good blend of the qualities of an 18 and a 22. In theory, it should be, and should provide a happy middle-ground between those other two sizes. But for me that's never been the case, and the multiple 20's I've owned have always ended up disappointing me. I don't know why - I just know it's the way things are, at least to my ears.

And acknowledging and accepting that observation was a big part of why I quit caring about theory, and started simply paying attention to how things sound, which is what I'm advocating with cymbals.

[Chris Whitten]

Sorry to say, I've never really cared about materials or manufacturing methods either.
like Mr A, I've owned and played cymbals by a variety of manufacturers, and (I'm sure) made from a variety of materials and manufacturing methods.
In the end, I think you'll find almost all pro drummers will say the same thing "meh, it's all about the sound".

I'm a Zildjian endorser.
Zildjian use their Zildjian alloy (secret recipe ;)) and use similar methods to make their cymbals.
There are quite a few Zildjian cymbals I don't like. Actually quite a few 16" K Dark crashes I don't like - but there is always one that sounds just right for me.
So you can't really look at an alloy, a manufacturing method and a model and say you'll like it - you have to use your ears.
The same goes for drums actually.
Despite the forums, you wont hear many pro drummers chatting at length about shell material on a snare drum. In the end, it either sounds good to them or it doesn't.
Drums like the Supraphonic and Black Beauty are industry standard and loved by many drummers. Ask them about the construction, materials and  manufacturing methods and 9/10 studio drummers will reply "uh..... it sounds good".

I don't really care what Sabian or Paiste do. I've heard plenty of excellent cymbals from both companies.
I agree with everything David Stanoch wrote with one exception.
I've never seen Paiste as an underdog, nor have I ever encountered many who are surprised by their performance.
I'm guessing it's a European thing.
Paiste have always been quite expensive, and always in my experience regarded as a superior product, even a little more top shelf than Zildjian and Sabian.
For the longest time they've had a roster of master drummers endorsing, especially European drummers.
These days I view them all pretty much equally, although the sounds I hear are more often in the Zildjian stable, at least they deliver the sounds I hear from the way I play. But I have no doubt I could get similar results from a set of Sabian or Paiste.

Often you have to when you're traveling and hiring gear.

[David Stanoch]

But let me clarify a point: I'm NOT saying alloy doesn't matter. I'm saying there's no black/white determination of good-sounding alloy versus bad-sounding alloy.

Some B8s sound great. Some sound like crap.

Similarly, some old Turkish K's sound great. And some sound like crap.

You're choosing an odd - and frankly, pretty snarky - way of interpreting the responses I've given, which are based on a long career during which I've always taken my sound VERY seriously. 

I'm sorry you don't find my advice helpful, and that nobody here has corroborated your all-or-nothing stance that the only thing that determines a cymbal's potential quality is its alloy. That simply hasn't been my experience.

Probably because it sounds freaking great. I think Paiste makes some of the best sounding, most consistent cymbals around, and happily played a variety of Paiste cymbals over a significant portion of my professional career.

If you don't like the way they sound, fair enough. I for one always thought that Jeff Porcaro, Stewart Copeland and Alex Van Halen had pretty darn good taste in cymbal sounds - you may disagree.

I've said this before, in some variation or another: There's theory, and there's the way things really are.

You may theorize to your heart's content that only certain alloys can produce good sounds. My experience over the decades has proven - at least to my own satisfaction - that it's not that simple.

An example: for me, a 20" bass drum is NOT a good blend of the qualities of an 18 and a 22. In theory, it should be, and should provide a happy middle-ground between those other two sizes. But for me that's never been the case, and the multiple 20's I've owned have always ended up disappointing me. I don't know why - I just know it's the way things are, at least to my ears.

And acknowledging and accepting that observation was a big part of why I quit caring about theory, and started simply paying attention to how things sound, which is what I'm advocating with cymbals.

I concur with Mr. A on the above points. And with no disrespect intended to eardrum or Danno or anyone who finds the topic of alloy interesting - it's your thing, do what'cha wanna do. But we all do better if we keep it civil. This thread has seen some pretty snipe-ish banter over...cymbal alloy? Wow.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has also picked up on the underlying implication that the Paiste family is somehow cheap because they've experimented with alloys beyond B20 on a high level of artisanship. Their commitment to their craft is irrefutable, as anyone who might go back to that wikipedia link and review their innovative contributions to the the evolution of the cymbal can plainly see. Enough already.

Danno's comparison of wood types/metals for drums is fair enough indeed, but I've found the accepted theories there are inconsistent for me as well. Snare drums, for example...some say metal = bright, wood =warm. But my Ludwig Black Beauty sounds phat and mellow, and my DW Craviatto cuts like a gunshot. My Ludwig Supraphonic cracks when I crank it and is warm and wet when I tune it down.

I too have just stopped analyzing, that's all. I'm results oriented. If I pick up a drum or cymbal, like the sound, and feel I have an application for it then I'm in! And like Keith, I've played just about everything out there and can choose to play what I want. Any manufacturer whose products I endorse I have chosen because I get the results and support I want and need. That doesn't compromise me, it frees me!

To me a Paiste Signature Full Crash is the most sublime cymbal sound I've ever heard on the bright end of the spectrum. The New Signature Light/Dark Rides have a thirsty dryness and beautiful tone that ranks with anything I've heard on the dark end of the spectrum. Whatever they make them out of, don't stop - works for me! Dave happy. Done. They're like my amazing and wonderful wife. She's mine, we're inseparable and I don't have to worry about dating any more. Thank God!

[eardrum]

.........
Still don't know why Paiste uses B8 for high-end cymbals. Anyone?

1. It's less expensive.
2. They've found a proprietary way to achieve a high quality sound with a less expensive material.  More power to em. Doesn't appear anyone has specifics on "how" they achieve it. 

BUT not all Paiste are B8s..
From the Wikipedia article I referenced earlier their present lines use both brass, B8 and B20 as well as their "signature" bronze which is 14.7% to 15.1% tin content by weight. Interestingly, the Twenty series using the B20 was introduced recently.   
Current Series....
101 - brass
201 - B8
PST 3 - Brass
PST 5 - B8
Alpha - B8
2002 - B8
RUDE - B8
Giant Beat - (B8)
Signature - Signature Bronze
New Signature- Signature Bronze
Traditionals - "Signature Bronze"
Twenty - B20

Discontinued series::  The 602 which was (is on ebay) a popular series used B20.. The 400/404/505/1000/2000/3000 series all used B8... 

I've sampled Paiste at stores that I don't like and some that I like.  Next time I'll have to note which is which...

[Chris Whitten]

2. They've found a proprietary way to achieve a high quality sound with a less expensive material.  More power to em. Doesn't appear anyone has specifics on "how" they achieve it.  

Well I think Tim has mentioned at least twice in this thread that Paiste work their B8 alloy in a different way to other manufacturers.
In Tim's opinion, it's the working of the alloy which is important to the sound quality, not the basic alloy.
You and Danno seem to be of one voice that your question remains unanswered, in fact earlier you said 'dismissed'.
I believe Tim has honestly tried to answer your question, and in fact posted links to various sections of the Paiste website for your perusal.
Maybe you aren't reading his posts carefully enough.
Or maybe it isn't specific enough. But I do believe he's posted his thoughts in answer to your question and also linked to back-up material.

[David Stanoch]

Hi Chris,
I agree with your assessment...

I've never seen Paiste as an underdog, nor have I ever encountered many who are surprised by their performance.
I'm guessing it's a European thing.
Paiste have always been quite expensive, and always in my experience regarded as a superior product, even a little more top shelf than Zildjian and Sabian.
For the longest time they've had a roster of master drummers endorsing, especially European drummers.

With Zildjian & Sabian manufactured in North America and Paiste imported, I've rarely seen a dealership that has a stock of Paiste lines that equals that of the others mentioned. In addition to the amount of space it it would take I imagine the cost of that volume of stock figures in as well. Perhaps it opposite or just different in Europe where the rolls are reversed.

I may be a little fuzzy on this but my recollection is that back in the day, Ludwig was distributing Paiste in the USA, just as Gretsch was w/K. Zildjian cymbals from Turkey. When the 2002 line was introduced, I think the distributor changed (to Rogers, maybe?) and for a long time, the 2002 line was the ONLY Paiste line available in America.

In 1978, I was able to purchase some 602's, that were still being made of course, at the factory in Notwill, Switzerland, when I paid a visit there while on tour with a youth symphony. I also saw the first run of of the Sound Creation line then! The thing is I had to be in Europe to buy them!

And most of the drummers at that time I saw in concert that were using Paiste were from Europe, including Moon, Bonham, Barlow, & Bruford.

The thing that turns me on about cymbals - other than their sound, obviously - is the history. The collaboration of Avedis Zildjian and the great jazz drummers of the 1930's and 40's essentially defined the role of the cymbals in the drumset and popular music and it's a remarkable story. On the other side of the ocean, Paiste was pushing the envelope on the standard design of the cymbals, experimenting with and expanding on the instrument's sound and capability.

It still goes on. And it's pretty obvious they all pay attention to each other. Paiste's new Twenty line takes on the characteristics of the old form of the A. Zildjian line, just as Zildjian's A Custom line takes on the characteristics of the Paiste Signature line.

The wikipedia article noted this regarding Paiste's innovations:
"Many of these innovations were used by other manufacturers when the applicable patents expired. For example, almost all modern cymbal companies offer a flat ride cymbal."

Mastersound hi-hats? "Sound-Edge" as developed by Paiste. By the same token any cymbal manufacturer who uses the designations Ride, Crash, Splash, and Swish, are borrowing directly from the Zildjian definitions.

As I've said before, the bottom line to me is that the competition has ramped up to a level where each manufacturer's quality is so high, the consumer wins with a wide variety of options.

And again, in reference to something Chris Whitten said, it can help to be familiar with some of the similarities between manufacturers when you're on the road:

These days I view them all pretty much equally, although the sounds I hear are more often in the Zildjian stable, at least they deliver the sounds I hear from the way I play. But I have no doubt I could get similar results from a set of Sabian or Paiste.

Often you have to when you're traveling and hiring gear.

That is an excellent point. As the old song says, "You can't always get what you want but sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need!"

[Chris Whitten]

One of my all time favourite songs (just as an aside).

[eardrum]

Well I think Tim has mentioned at least twice in this thread that Paiste work their B8 alloy in a different way to other manufacturers.
In Tim's opinion, it's the working of the alloy which is important to the sound quality, not the basic alloy.
You and Danno seem to be of one voice that your question remains unanswered, in fact earlier you said 'dismissed'.
I believe Tim has honestly tried to answer your question, and in fact posted links to various sections of the Paiste website for your perusal.
Maybe you aren't reading his posts carefully enough.
Or maybe it isn't specific enough. But I do believe he's posted his thoughts in answer to your question and also linked to back-up material.

Chris, FWIW, I've read the posts very carefully and read the referenced link on Paiste's web site which also gives NO specifics and they even say they won't give specifics because it's a secret. And it doesn't sound like you read my posts where I question how manufacturers "magic" touch differs.  I appreciate what tim is saying but I disagree with the wholesale "dismissal" of a legitimate question as coming from one trapped in marketing hype.  I don't mind if people don't know the answer. Challenging the question or an underlying assumption in a question is legitimate but I don't like claims that the questioner has been twisted somehow.  All we have so far is that Paiste does "something" different that some here really like.  Every manufacturer makes that claim.  Mr A. likes a lot of the low cost Sabian B8s, cool.  I haven't heard any I really like - subjective for sure and I surely haven't tried everything out there.

Regarding Marketing Hype: So all this discussion and I decided I better check something out. Since I've been fairly unfamiliar with Paiste's line I did a little searching and GUESS WHAT, their most expensive cymbals are NOT B8, duh. (musiciansfriend, search ride cymbals, paiste, sort by price) Their Signature/Traditional are the most expensive cymbals which use the "Signature Bronze".  Also, their Twenty Series which are B20 are pretty close in price to the Giant Beats B8s, but I think the Giant Beats are special throwback series.  Bottom line, it appears consistent that every major mfc uses something other than B8 for the most expensive line.

There is an answer...... 

[Chonson]

Since I've been fairly unfamiliar with Paiste's line I did a little searching and GUESS WHAT, their most expensive cymbals are NOT B8, duh.

Which proves that copper is more expensive than tin.

The 2002 is the A Zildjian of the Paiste world. It's a bread and butter cymbal, been around for decades, and is the kind of classic embodiment of "Paiste" at this point. They're pro cymbals.

Don't make the mistake of equating price with quality (who wants an Acrolite anyway).

To some extent you're comparing apples and oranges. Listen to a Paiste B20 cymbal. Listen to a Zildjian or Sabian B20. They are still very, very different beasts. They may have some timbral similarities but the character of the sound is still quite different. Can't do the same test with B8 because Z&S have not used them as pro line cymbals.

But I'd say the treatment of an alloy (hammering, lathing, adding the bell) is vastly more important than the alloy itself. But maybe that's just my personal feelings since I've tended to favor darker, thinner, more complex cymbals that you see in the K, HH, and various Agop ranges, vs the heavier As, Zs, AAXs etc: all are B20. There are plenty of B20s I'd prefer to never lay stick to again.

[Mister Acrolite]

Here's my last input on this, and then I'm done.

In my experience, dogged adherence to theory can lead to fooling yourself through prejudice. Get it set in your mind that B8 can't sound as good as another alloy, and it never will, because you'll have talked yourself out of it being possible.

Case in point. I own a Black Beauty piccolo snare - this is a tiny 3x13 drum that is by far the loudest snare I've owned, with a huge FAT sound. Nothing like you'd expect from such a little drum.

I brought it to a recording session, and the engineer kind of sneered at it as I was setting it up. I think he even said something like "I hope you brought a few bigger drums we can try."

Anyway, we get set up, and the engineer mics up the kit and goes off to the control room and starts getting sounds for each component of the kit. He keeps talking into my headphone mix, saying, "That snare just isn't cutting it. It sounds way too thin."

"Come out into the room and give it a listen," I reply. "It sounds really fat out here, so maybe you should try another mic."

This went on for quite a while, but the guy never came out of the control room, and never tried changing the mic - he just kept messing with his dials, and then complaining through the talkback mic that the drum sounded thin.

Finally I got fed up. I put down my sticks, took off my headphones and marched into the control room. I dragged the guy out into the main room, sat down behind the kit, and slammed out a single rimshot on the snare, a sound not unlike Clint Eastwood's 44 magnum.

The guy's eyes got as wide as saucers, and he quietly said, "Let's try another mic."

He had been hearing with his eyes, with his brain, with his theories, and with his prejudice. But not with his ears. Not until I forced the issue.

You can talk yourself into believing that only certain metals sound good. Or certain brands, for that matter. But given the fact that some amazingly talented musicians have made some amazing sounding music using just about every conceivable brand and material, I submit that there's powerful evidence to the contrary, and that by trying to reach such locked-down conclusions you will only LIMIT your awareness - and subsequently, your use - of all the great sounding instruments out there.

I prefer to keep an open mind. Which has led me to find some amazing sounding instruments across the entire spectrum of price ranges and materials. Me, I like my world to keep getting bigger, not smaller. Your mileage may vary.