Topic: Paiste Chat

[Chris Whitten]

My meter peaked and set off alarms because I sat there and watched even the idea of a discussion hijacked as if it was H1N1.  

Which had nothing to do with endorsements.... sorry.

Although I'm sure there is great info you guys could pass on I'll be taking my questions about this topic elsewhere.

Honestly, I think you got the great info - forget labels and preconceptions and play drums with your ears.
Problem is the great info (from experienced players) didn't match your expectation.

[Bart Elliott]

I've stayed out of this conversation, up until now, simply because I haven't been reading or following the thread. Hearing that things have gotten a little heated, and since this is my house, I've gone back from the beginning and read every post in this thread. I'm a little late to the game and have been writing out my response(s) over the last few days; only now having the time to finish and post them. So here are my comments; take from it what you will.

• Paiste cymbals have been THE cymbal for the recording industry here in Nashville. This has changed in the last decade, but the majority of the top session drummers in Nashville have been using Paiste cymbals on the record dates. In fact engineers and producers have loved these cymbals for decades as well, even to the point of getting a little snobbish if you didn't use them. They were using their ears, and knowing what was out there and what they liked, Paiste cymbals were the desired choice. It doesn't mean that other cymbals were bad or that Paiste cymbals were better; they simply preferred that sound in the studio.
  
  We have several pros here at the Drummer Cafe who use the B8 Sabians in the recording studio; Bermuda Schwartz and Keith Cronin. I've spoken with Bermuda about this on several occasions, and he has stated on camera that "the B8 Sabian cymbals" (those considered to be "cheap" or "student line" cymbals), "just sound good on tape".
  
  
• Paralleling the quality of a cymbal between different brands, based solely on its alloy, is not prudent. It's what someone does with that alloy and how they fashion the instrument that makes the difference. The alloy alone doesn't define the final product.
  
  
• Comparing wood shells to metal cymbals doesn't really equate since the wood isn't altered and broken down like metal is. The cymbal is what it is with no additional components. A wood shell is combined with many other parts in order to form a drum, with the drumhead affecting the biggest portion of the instrument's identity.
  
  
• To imply that someone who has been using or endorsing a brand of instrument for any length of time is some how disqualified in having a valid opinion (based on experience) is not prudent.
  
  Endorsement relations in the music industry can not be equally paralleled with other industries. Most professional musicians use a particular instrument FIRST before endorsing the company that makes that instrument. The instruments used help define, to some degree, the musician's sound or what they want their sound to be. Hanes doesn't define Michael Jordan's performance as a basketball player. (skip the jokes). Zildjian cymbals defined Tony Williams' sound.
  
  Some musicians can be endorsement whores, jumping from company to company, but those are easy to spot (I'll omit any names). The vast majority of musicians, especially drummers/percussionists endorse a product because the have researched and experimented and found that _________ is their choice to use. They've chosen to develop a relationship with ________ company, but that doesn't mean that they only use that companies products.
  
  Of the pros at the Drummer Cafe, every one of them (you can include me in that list) has admitted to owning and liking other cymbal brands, despite their official endorsement. When creating their art, most professional players use their ears when choosing an instrument. This is especially true when in the recording studio. Live can be a different situation since a company may be funding the performance, so the artist needs to use their product.
  
  Seeing a professional in an ad with a particular brand instrument is one thing. Speaking with them and having them tell you their thoughts on particular instruments is something altogether different.
  
  
• Any opinion not based on personal experience(s) simply isn't worth much; it's foolishness.

[Tim van de Ven]

Beautiful post, Bart.

[Tim van de Ven]

I'm really glad that I was too busy to participate in this thread for the last little bit.

The Mike Skiba post is fascinating, considering Mike's own personal biases towards alloys and Zildjian and the Cymbalholic bias in general. At one point, Mike stated that "Paiste stamps out their cymbals like coins" without ever having watched the footage of how they actually make their cymbals.

I don't miss, not one bit, reading posts on Cymbalholic about "superior" alloys, snare drums, "real musicians", and "real music" from self-proclaimed "experts" that can't play, whilst slamming the opinions of the professionals. I've recently left that site for good (Keith, you won't get any requests from me to return this time  )

In my experiences, I've encountered a number of drummers after my shows that have commented positively on my Giant Beats (as recently as last night where a Paiste endorser got to play my set and told me that he needs to call La Brea to get a 24" Giant Beat in his set-up). It floors me when I hear other drummers dissing an alloy (or even a manufacturer) because one cymbal or one line didn't sound "right" to them.

Let me put it this way: Zildjian and Sabian work their B8 cymbals the way that they do......because that's how they choose to work them. Paiste and Meinl (yes, Meinl) work it another way (and there are likely differences between Meinl and Paiste's manufacture, as well).

And like Keith (Mr A) in my youth, I would have given my left nut as well to be speaking with pros and getting their ideas and philosophies; now I can show up here   and speak with Chris, Keith, David, Bart, Bermuda....and I get to keep both of my nuts.

And thanks to Chris for his help in this thread as well.

All of this over-analysation of alloys, shell materials, bearing edges, etc. is similar to quantum physics: the instant that you measure something, you've changed the results.

[Mark Counts]

This thread wore me out... When I make a pot of chili, all I care about is how good it tastes to me... Same with the cymbal brand I love... I don't care what it is made of.. I love Paiste cymbals but that doesn't mean I feel any resentment towards any other brand or believe they are not as good. I picked what my ears like. I really enjoyed readying the post of the 4 or 5 pro drummers that commented on this thread. Your thoughts and feed back were very nice to read and I think that sometimes people over analyse stuff for no reason. We have many engineers at work with a lot of great ideas but my thoughts are "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Nutty

[Mark Schlipper (563)]

Just getting at least somewhat back on topic ...

I'm kind of a Paiste user.   

After a period with Istanbul and Bosphorus, Im back to using some of the more oddball pies I gained some small noteriety around here for.   My old Ludwig/Paistes.   I'm really only using one ride for the most part, but carry three with me to gigs so I can tailor a bit to the room.   All three are Swiss made Paiste/Ludwig Standards.   Which are an NS12 alloy

Which brings me to alloy discussion.   Most simply put by other people already, it's not just the alloy, it's how it's worked with. Paiste typically uses 'high end' and hand methods to make their high end cymbals vs. the entirely automated/machined methods of the 'low end'.   And any method that uses people costs more than automated.   

As for the relevance of such things I think that yes, 'ears' should decide, but 'math' can help steer.

What I mean is that there's an inherent sonic property to B8 vs. B20 vs. B12 vs. NS12 vs. Stainless vs. whatever.  Just as there's a difference in sound of a lathed and unlathed cymbal, or different sizes.   And knowing those inherent properties can help steer you toward the desired sound.   Doesn't mean you shouldn't look outside that box, but it's always nice to have a starting point that isn't 'every cymbal ever'. 

[Vintage Ludwig]

Cool 563, thanks for getting this back on track!  And your post was spot on