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[eardrum]

Which proves that copper is more expensive than tin.
....

I think you've inverted it. B8 has less tin and tin is more expensive than copper according to what I've seen.   Do you have something to back that up... .

http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/cu/cu.asp
Copper 2.88 $/lb    Tin $7.105

I don't know what the mfc's price is since they buy quantity and problem trade in the futures market for the stuff.  

To some extent you're comparing apples and oranges. Listen to a Paiste B20 cymbal. Listen to a Zildjian or Sabian B20. They are still very, very different beasts. They may have some timbral similarities but the character of the sound is still quite different. Can't do the same test with B8 because Z&S have not used them as pro line cymbals.
....

No dispute there. But that is the question. How the same materials produces apples in some cases and oranges in another.

[eardrum]

....
I prefer to keep an open mind. Which has led me to find some amazing sounding instruments across the entire spectrum of price ranges and materials. Me, I like my world to keep getting bigger, not smaller. Your mileage may vary.

Wow, so now I don't have an open mind and have a blind adherence to theory and my world is getting smaller.  There is a lot of ego getting tweaked me thinks. Apparently you think my curiosity and interest in the facts related to cymbal making is misleading others or myself - I have no idea what you are reading. But honestly, I'm interested in the facts first, and although your opinion and vast experience are sometimes helpful, in this case it could have been stated simply as "I like/use many of the B8s and don't know, care or worry about materials - period" instead of implying pretty awful things about others. I would have seriously considered that. For me, this is a discussion about what a good job Paiste does with their cymbals and how they do it.  (ARE YOU READING THIS) I've never said Paiste is inferior or you are wrong about your cymbal choice and I'm trying desperately to stick to facts, filter the bias of endorsers (hello) and pros, learn about Paiste and cymbal making, etc..  It's REALLY hard given the rantings and patronizing remarks...  I've actually learned a lot but unfortunately it's NOT been from the posts here. No one has disputed any of the facts I've presented although I've invited confirmation.  A "premise" was dismissed which was never clearly defined - I let that go not know what was being implied.  The lack of answers prompted me to go out and dig up stuff myself, sticking to facts and I've TRIED to share it. Maybe that's not what an open minded person should do...

Back to posting about Paiste products please.... 

[Chris Whitten]

Well, as I said, Tim talked about the way the B8 alloy was worked.
I gather that wasn't enough for you, but I still don't think it warrants the criticism you continually lay that contributors to this thread are ignoring your question or 'dismissing' it.
At one point Tim mentioned 'marketing hype'.
I didn't, Mr A didn't, neither did David Stanoch. So please stop throwing it about as if it's a major point we are all trying to defend.
A couple of facts...
1) The 2002 line is indeed a high end professional cymbal. Many hugely respected drummers used 2002 cymbals almost exclusively in the late 70's. Some even used the Rude line a lot (also B8).
2) So far several professional and long experienced drummers have contributed to the thread saying they don't really care about cymbal alloys, or cymbal price points.
However, you seem to be getting more and more angry with the way the discussion is going.
Perhaps you are just putting way too much import on your theory.
I do not think 'ego's are being tweaked' in the slightest bit.

If you think 30 years of experience (at the sharp end of the business) can be challenged by an argument over cymbal alloys and marketing you are wrong I'm afraid.
I've had far more scary episodes dealing with my own inadequacies as a drummer in a room full of professionals to worry about a theoretical debate on a forum.
If you don't accept the comments of several professionals........ I can probably live with that.

[eardrum]

The reason I don't have an answer is that I reject the premise. .............

Rejected/Dismissed...
Chris, I really think you got your facts wrong out of allegiance to the party line here.  I don't even know what premise Mr. A was talking about since it could be 1) that B8 is less expensive, 2) Sabian B8s sound different than Paiste B8s, 3) that raw materials have influence on quality that is predictable, 4) B8s are inferior or who knows what else.  I think Mr. A is offended because many of us think Sabian B8s don't sound great.  So maybe he's just rejected or dismissing us, because that is how it appears in context.

Tim told Danno that he has "fallen" for Marketing Hype and repeated the claim after Danno explained that he didn't like the B8s (not Paiste) he used.  Sorry but that's just weird.  Statement: I don't like that sound. Response: YOU ARE WRONG -IT WAS THE PACKAGING THAT BRAINWASHED YOU.

I responded to the general assertion that we shouldn't concern ourselves with metal, just sound with a simple why not, we talk woods, skins, sticks, etc.  Vague responses that don't directly address specific questions and claims of closed mindedness while asserting your years of experience is a snarly tactic indeed and more suited to politicians, not people genuinely interested in learning.

Forget it then, move on, you guys have your minds made up and can't seem to avoid making it an us vs them issue.  You really don't get it or haven't actually read all my posts here. I'll stay happily closed minded within my shrinking theoretical world per Mr. A.  If anyone wants to talk cymbals, I'm still curious and interested and open to everyones input but you should probably PM me because this, unfortunately is going nowhere? 

[Mister Acrolite]

It's funny. We've got working pros with national credentials and endorsements, playing three different brands of cymbals, all telling you the same thing.

I'm sorry, but if you don't find that helpful, I don't know what I'm doing here. As a young student of the instrument, I'd have given my left nut to be able to pick the brains of serious career drummers who were out there doing it for real. I'm sorry that sort of thing isn't considered valuable here.

Carry on. Let me know when you determine the best metal to use for cymbals. I'll be eager to buy them, and replace what I'm sure is inferior crap that has been getting shoved my way by evil marketers and party line allegiance.

Looking for, but failing to find, a polite way to say bite me.

[Chris Whitten]

Rejected/Dismissed...
Chris, I really think you got your facts wrong out of allegiance to the party line here.  
Forget it then, move on, you guys have your minds made up and can't seem to avoid making it an us vs them issue.

Well firstly I think the point is our minds aren't made up. We'll try anything at least once, and if it works....great.
Secondly, things like experience and professionalism have a place in a discussion like this.
If you are playing in a bar and one of the patrons happens to mention your cymbal sound sucks, it's kind of a debatable matter of opinion. As the owner and player of the cymbals you might get annoyed, but you'll live.
I know - I've played local bar gigs all my life.
If you are a professional and your employer (or a producer if you are in a democratic band) tells you your cymbals suck it's usually pretty bad news.
They might not hire you again, they might tell all their friends who wont hire you again.
"The guy can really play, but his cymbals sounded like trash can lids".
So, in a very real way the sound performance always transcends any personal prejudice, marketing, even endorser allegiance.

Tim told Danno that he has "fallen" for Marketing Hype and repeated the claim after Danno explained that he didn't like the B8s (not Paiste) he used.  Sorry but that's just weird.  Statement: I don't like that sound. Response: YOU ARE WRONG -IT WAS THE PACKAGING THAT BRAINWASHED YOU.

Well maybe it was weird, maybe it was unwarranted, but three other experienced contributors said enough about cymbal choice that didn't include being brainwashed, and yet the comment still pops up as a major talking point in the debate.

I'll tell you honestly, I can pick up a hand made suit with no label, and pick up an identical suit by Armani and instantly prefer the Armani. I'm just drawn towards it.
Both may have been made in the same factory.
That's just me. I'm human. I can get sucked in by marketing hype, just like any other human.
So it may well not apply in this case, but it's not that weird. It's in fact normal.

[eardrum]

Chris, thanks for continuing to be civil. I'll try to respond and not offend but there is a real problem here IMHO that I'll get to at the end...
Start with last point first. Yes everyone is susceptible to skillful marketing - even pros who are "endorsers".  But when one buys multiple items, experience them and have an opinion about it, how is someone on an internet forum able to diagnose that you are an idiot. Crikey, give the guy some credit. Plus, a quick count (numbers anyone) of pros listed on the cymbal mfcs own web pages that endorse B8 versus B20 seems to indicate that most have fallen for the same marketing hype - seems unlikely. If I'm wrong, provide some stats - don't answer with the tired years of experience line. 

As far as your suit metaphor, we are not talking about labels. At least some of us were trying to have a talk about materials, silk vs cotton maybe.  Statement: I don't like cotton, Response: you're wrong, silk is better.  Either way it's rude and sounds a lot like agenda pushing.  And objectively, that can't be ruled out. The ones with the strongest opinions seem to either be or have been endorsers.  In my profession, endorsers, reps, etc are ASSUMED biased and in some cases are requested/required not to present any of their product specific ideas on technical presentations. I believe/hope folks here are honest and passionate about their choices and obviously have a lot to offer but I don't think making one's case by bullying is effective. 

Second, regarding experience.  I've never met professionals in any line of work worth listening to that avoid questions, avoid arguing the point, dismiss others experience and knowledge and insist they should be listened to because of their superior experience.   It's really very bad form and it's sad to see it here.  There are ways to teach, to educate, to enlighten. Bragging about ones credentials is simply off-putting.

Finally, I still think that minds are made up -  or some simply don't want this discussion for some reason.  It's curious that a few "leaders" on a forum intended for free exchange of ideas and information seem to band together to squash questions about cymbal making that apparently may challenge their decisions, expose lack of in depth knowledge or somehow reflect badly on the mfc they endorse. No one here claims expertise in "cymbal making" but some seem to have very strong opinions that we shouldn't concern ourselves with it.  Ok, then let those interested in talking about have a chat.  It's weird for sure and I'm not the only one getting that vibe.  I may be the only one that has stuck around and is pointing it out. 

On the positive side, I found some great sites on cymbal making and this has been an "interesting" distraction from the bill paying, taxes and superbowl party prep.   Go Saints!

[Chris Whitten]

Well I guess in the end we (the undersigned) seem to think less of materials and method of manufacturing than you. Is that such a crime?
I don't think anyone amongst 'the pros' is trying to dodge a tricky question, or knock anyone down to size. Somehow we came to a collective "who cares, it's all good" conclusion to this discussion, that's all. Sorry if that seems like avoidance, but what can you say if you aren't really passionate about the difference between two cymbal alloys.
Sorry you don't want to talk about experience, but in 25 years as a busy drummer I can honestly say I'd never heard of B8 or B20.
I'd heard of Avedis cymbals, and 2002's for rock. I knew the killer drummers who played them.
When I did a couple of major rock tours I used K Zildjians. They weren't meant to be rock cymbals, but I actually walked into a Zildjian office and bashed a few, thought they sounded great and ended up using them for the last 25 years. I don't know what 'B' they are. I presume B20 as you've indicated that most endorsing drummers play B20 cymbals.
I played an N&C Star kit, which only one other visible drummer at the time was using (Denny Carmassi of Heart).
So I think I was using my ears, not going with the popular gear of the time, or the high profile well known brands.
AS far as your comments about the pros on this site is concerned, I think over a long period of time I've gone on the record at The Drummercafe with very honest opinion about all sorts of gear. I have what I would characterize as a reasonable endorser bias towards Zildjian, which means I can't help liking some of their cymbals, but I own other brands and regularly recommend other cymbals to members of this and other fora. Any suggestion I am professionally biased, or pass on biased or incorrect information to put Zildjian in a better light would be extremely disappointing to me.
Actually, I've been reading Keith's posts on this and other fora for what?... about 7 years. He seems like a guy who knows a lot about gear. A guy who'll recommend anything that he rates, whatever the brand, then he'll cheerfully add the caveat that he's a Sabian endorser and particularly likes their sound.
I think your conspiracy, bias and personal judgement indicators are starting to fly way off the deep end.
And I can't believe this is all about some stupid cymbal alloy. 
 

[Chris Whitten]

No one here claims expertise in "cymbal making" but some seem to have very strong opinions that we shouldn't concern ourselves with it.  Ok, then let those interested in talking about have a chat. 

That's fine and reasonable.
If you and one or two others could cut out the jibes about some who initially upset you, we can all move on.
If you want to have a big chat about cymbals, how they are made and what they made of, go ahead.
Maybe we can draw a line under the personal and professional character judgements.

[Vintage Ludwig]

Here's my last input on this, and then I'm done.

In my experience, dogged adherence to theory can lead to fooling yourself through prejudice. Get it set in your mind that B8 can't sound as good as another alloy, and it never will, because you'll have talked yourself out of it being possible.

Case in point. I own a Black Beauty piccolo snare - this is a tiny 3x13 drum that is by far the loudest snare I've owned, with a huge FAT sound. Nothing like you'd expect from such a little drum.

I brought it to a recording session, and the engineer kind of sneered at it as I was setting it up. I think he even said something like "I hope you brought a few bigger drums we can try."

Anyway, we get set up, and the engineer mics up the kit and goes off to the control room and starts getting sounds for each component of the kit. He keeps talking into my headphone mix, saying, "That snare just isn't cutting it. It sounds way too thin."

"Come out into the room and give it a listen," I reply. "It sounds really fat out here, so maybe you should try another mic."

This went on for quite a while, but the guy never came out of the control room, and never tried changing the mic - he just kept messing with his dials, and then complaining through the talkback mic that the drum sounded thin.

Finally I got fed up. I put down my sticks, took off my headphones and marched into the control room. I dragged the guy out into the main room, sat down behind the kit, and slammed out a single rimshot on the snare, a sound not unlike Clint Eastwood's 44 magnum.

The guy's eyes got as wide as saucers, and he quietly said, "Let's try another mic."

He had been hearing with his eyes, with his brain, with his theories, and with his prejudice. But not with his ears. Not until I forced the issue.

You can talk yourself into believing that only certain metals sound good. Or certain brands, for that matter. But given the fact that some amazingly talented musicians have made some amazing sounding music using just about every conceivable brand and material, I submit that there's powerful evidence to the contrary, and that by trying to reach such locked-down conclusions you will only LIMIT your awareness - and subsequently, your use - of all the great sounding instruments out there.

I prefer to keep an open mind. Which has led me to find some amazing sounding instruments across the entire spectrum of price ranges and materials. Me, I like my world to keep getting bigger, not smaller. Your mileage may vary.

Very fine point youve made here Keith!  Placebo effect bigtime lol

[eardrum]

Time for a little self evaluation. I went back and reread my posts to see how this got here and if I've said anything untrue, "attacking", malicious... Don't see it. I can only go by what is actually said. Mind reading is not a gift I share.  

Well I guess in the end we (the undersigned) seem to think less of materials and method of manufacturing than you. Is that such a crime?......

You are repeating my sentiment posted way back.  I've never implied that those uninterested in the physics and in manufacturing are committing a crime, misdemeanor or anything wrong at all and specifically stated I have no problem there. I've simply disagreed when it's suggested that someone who considers materials in making a decision about a purchase is somehow misguided or worse.  It may represent little or no importance to some and much to others - but that nuance isn't even allowed.  

.....And I can't believe this is all about some stupid cymbal alloy.  
 

It's obviously not. It's about the level of discourse here which has not been very high for a while.  The only reason I'm taking time now to review this is because I care about what the cafe has been and could be.  A while back as this was heading south I thought I could have done something differently. Perhaps, if I had started another discussion topic related specifically to B8 vs B20 we could have continued to have some helpful discussion about the good and bad of Paiste products here and the materials issues elsewhere.  However, I don't know if that would have helped.  It think it would have still ended up with Mr. A inviting me to a culinary experience of disgusting proportions.  So I'll simply not.

[Mister Acrolite]

a culinary experience of disgusting proportions

Despite our differences, I gotta give that the nod as the game-winning quote from this thread!   

[Chris Whitten]

Time for a little self evaluation. I went back and reread my posts to see how this got here and if I've said anything untrue, "attacking", malicious... Don't see it. I can only go by what is actually said. Mind reading is not a gift I share.  

Well, I thought I read questioning of the 'pros' (for want of a better term) motives for posting on the forum.
I thought I read a question of misleading bias from Cafe members who endorse.
Not exactly 'attacking' or malicious IMO, but certainly a turn off for me.

I did suggest drawing a line on this disagreement between two parties, and included an invite for those who are more passionate about cymbal alloy to continue the discussion along those lines.
But you followed that with a post continuing the argument.
 
Oh well..... never mind.

[eardrum]

Well, I thought I read questioning of the 'pros' (for want of a better term) motives for posting on the forum.
I thought I read a question of misleading bias from Cafe members who endorse.
Not exactly 'attacking' or malicious IMO, but certainly a turn off for me.
.....

I can understand that. Perhaps I could have qualified it better. In every profession I know it is a given that endorsers are biased - I put it in the fact of life, deal with it category.  I hope we teach our kids about the fact that most everyone is selling something, weather it's the TV anchor man or the car sales dude.  Everyone includes me.  Steve Gadd doesn't need a Dale Carnegie elevator pitch class but when he shows up for a clinic with a big truck screaming "YAMAHA" I'm sure he realizes that HE is the pitch.  I still go, enjoy it and learn as much as I can.   It doesn't = dishonesty and often it's where a bulk of the expertise lies.  It is something every profession deals with and with many there are very clear rules and protocols. God forbid we impose any here.  You don't invite the CEO of Merck to speak on childhood diagnosis of depression without factoring in the billions made in prescriptions sold by him - extreme example for sure. Although he may have vast and helpful knowledge. I was trying to point out in context that it's there, a reality and something I take seriously and assume to a certain extent other intelligent people do also.  Perhaps some don't, but I don't think that is very smart. Hopefully that's clear and unoffending but I do understanding how it could be a turn off for "endorsers" when brought up.  Again, fact of life, deal with it. I don't think that pointing it out, which I am guilty of, will or should limit endorsers ability to teach and discuss, answer question, challenge thinking etc in this forum.  I'm still counting on their contribution and it is part what makes the cafe worth visiting.

[eardrum]

.....
I did suggest drawing a line on this disagreement between two parties, and included an invite for those who are more passionate about cymbal alloy to continue the discussion along those lines.
But you followed that with a post continuing the argument.
 
Oh well..... never mind.

Thanks for that but I'm sure my blathering has chased everyone away.   

[eardrum]

Despite our differences, I gotta give that the nod as the game-winning quote from this thread!   

It was inspired.

And despite our differences, thanks for not hitting the kill switch.  It's not un-noticed.

[Mister Acrolite]

I think if you analyze the posting habits of most Cafe members with endorsement deals, you'll find they are largely free of any sales pitches or urges to "drink the Koolaid." Most of us have played a wide variety of gear throughout are careers, and are well aware that there are quality products being made by all the major brands. And I think for the most part we're pretty careful about not pushing any brands down anybody's throat, so when we get accused of it, it bugs us.

As a moderator here, I am EXTREMELY aware of the potential for a bully pulpit, and I try to avoid pitching any brands that I am affiliated with exclusively, unless I'm answering a question about my own kit, such as what head do I use on my bass drum, or what crashes do I record with. My responses in this thread have not presented Sabian as the superior brand, nor did I see Chris try to sell us on Zildjians, nor David on Paistes. We were all simply offering our perspectives regarding the alloy question, and we did so independently, without conferring with each other offline, and yet we each said the same thing: none of us focused on what alloys were involved in the cymbals we played.

It's easy to forget how recently public perception of raw materials became more  prevalent. Back in the 70's, I was very serious about gear, and pretty well-versed in most of the major drum and cymbal products. Yet we didn't talk about how many plies were in a drum shell, nor about birch versus maple versus poplar. Hell, drums were made of WOOD, and cymbals were made of METAL (and a fair amount of us probably thought cymbals were made of brass).

That stuff just wasn't on our radar. But product lines were. I could tell you the difference between 602s and 2002s. Between new A's and old K's. Between a Supraphonic and a Dynasonic, or between Atlas or Memrilock hardware. But I couldn't tell you what kind of metal was used, or what degree the bearing edges were cut to. Public awareness of that sort of thing is still pretty new - DW made it a big part of their marketing angle, offering themselves as this uber-scientific, highly analytical product designer (ignoring if you will the fact that their original flagship product was a pretty obvious Camco knock-off). Yamaha started making us aware of bearing edges and wood types. Bottom line, today drummers talk about technical factors that many older pros simply didn't concern themselves with. Not out of apathy - it just hadn't become part of the conversation yet.

So maybe to a newer generation of drummers, the subject of whether cymbals are made of B8 or B20 is interesting. Fair enough. But I still stand by my original stance, that I've heard great sounding products from all over the spectrum of prices, materials, and manufacturing technologies. And I've learned that a Rude cymbal can sound good in a jazz context, a "rock crash" cymbal  can be an excellent studio ride cymbal, and that a "student" snare drum can sound as good as a drum costing ten times as much. And all that I learned by trial and error, and by not limiting myself to assumptions about specific materials dictating whether something sounds good or not. Because every time I'd draw such a conclusion, along would come an instrument that would prove me wrong.

That's why you see Jeff "Tain" Watts, one of the most serious jazz drummers out there, playing a freaking Sabian Rocktagon - a cymbal so silly looking that I don't even know if I could play it, despite all my talk about open-mindedness. But dang if that cymbal doesn't sound great when he plays it.

That's what I'm getting at, nothing more. If alloys interest you, study 'em. But don't be surprised to find that the alloys are not the only determining factor in the quality of a cymbal's sound.

Okay, NOW I'm done, before I set up eardrum with any more thread-winning quips.  

[Chris Whitten]

I'm sorry, even though Keith has spoken so eloquently, and pretty much laid it out there as it is in reality, there is one last thing that troubles me......

In every profession I know it is a given that endorsers are biased - I put it in the fact of life, deal with it category. I was trying to point out in context that it's there, a reality and something I take seriously and assume to a certain extent other intelligent people do also.  Perhaps some don't, but I don't think that is very smart. Hopefully that's clear and unoffending but I do understanding how it could be a turn off for "endorsers" when brought up.  Again, fact of life, deal with it.

I'm sorry but you entirely missed my point.
I'm far from turned off that you remind everyone that endorsers 'are biased', although I would argue quite vigorously the above quote of yours overstates the bias of Drummer Cafe forum members who endorse.
Perhaps you missed my comment earlier that I dislike quite a few Zildjian cymbals.
Saying things like that weigh quite heavily on my mind actually. Because I like the people at Zildjian, they've been very good to me - I'm talking personally, the way they talk to me, the way they treat me and the way they care about our relationship (even though I'm more or less retired). It ain't about money in this case, I can tell you that.
But anyway, I'm fully aware of what I'm saying when I say these things, and I know they can get reported back to Zildjian, probably out of context and it can hurt people's feelings.
So, you'll see professionals on this forum commenting on a particular Paiste ride, or a pair of Sabian hi-hats etc... and if they've heard it and liked it they'll always post a positive comment, even if they endorse a 'rival brand'.
When you say you expect endorsers on this site to be biased, I think you actually misrepresent the content we've brought to this site over recent years - content like fairly detailed, favourable posts about anything we've come across in our travels that sounds good, whoever makes the product.
It was a denial of that reality which I felt in your previous post which 'turned me off', not that you are somehow wise to our marketing ploys.
I mean, why are we posting our opinions on gear if your endorser warning meter is constantly peaking into the red?

[eardrum]

I mean, why are we posting our opinions on gear if your endorser warning meter is constantly peaking into the red?

My meter peaked and set off alarms because I sat there and watched even the idea of a discussion hijacked as if it was H1N1.  I really wanted to get into the subject, learn about Paiste's magic, etc. but this soil doesn't seem suited for that seed - it happens.  Although I'm sure there is great info you guys could pass on I'll be taking my questions about this topic elsewhere.

[eardrum]

.......That's what I'm getting at, nothing more. If alloys interest you, study 'em. But don't be surprised to find that the alloys are not the only determining factor in the quality of a cymbal's sound.

I will. Disappointed it couldn't be here.