Topic: my stave drum experiment  (Read 20629 times)

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Offline dizz

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my stave drum experiment
« on: April 24, 2010, 08:34 AM »
Hello DCites

After seeing Bob Dias' stave drum project I'd been intrigued and inspired to try it myself.  I thought I'd experiment on a plank of oak I had lying in my shop.  The wood used to  be a bed frame rail.

First, I know I have the grain going in the wrong direction (horiz vs verti) but the grain kind of looks cool this way.  I hope however I don't run into problems down the road.

I figured I'd test out the process and the prototype could be turned into a pot planter or something since it would come out crappy right? haha  ;D

Well, it's actually coming out better than I thought it would.  Granted it's not done yet and I have many obstacles to overcome still to get this drum into a state of playability -and even then:  Will it sound ok?

Welp here's some pix -thanks for the inspiration Bob Dias!





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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 09:40 AM »
The shell is 13" in diameter
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Offline Todd Norris

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 05:21 PM »
Nicely done!  Keep us posted! 

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 07:38 PM »
Thanks for the look Todd!  I have an update.  Cut some preliminary edges:


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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 07:44 PM »
The shell wall thickness is 1.25" at it's thickest cross section.  I want to check it out before I go and cut down the inside.  The pictures don't do the shell justice (inside of the shell).

The diameter of the shell is 13".  The one pic with the ruler is kind of an optical illusion.  Ill try and upload a diameter shot.  Depth is 5.5"

If it ends up sounding odd or down right bad, I can always go back and trim the inner surface.  But once it's done there's no adding material.

It's been a fun albeit labor intensive project.  I've already learned many things not to do for next time and what to do too.

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Offline Todd Norris

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 08:20 PM »
Wow, 1.25" that's a monster!  I've not seen anyone not do the inside so it will be interesting to hear what you think of it.  If you do finish the inside, it will also be interesting to see what thickness you end up at. 

Offline Bill Bachman

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 11:54 PM »
This is seriously cool. What machine is that? A planer? Is there play where the drum spool mount sits on the bar? Wouldn't that effect how it gets into round? How would/will you go about trimming the inside to make it round?

I love these projects.
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2010, 07:19 AM »
Hi Bill

Thanks for stopping in to my thread.

What you're looking at is simply a router table with an unrelated crossbar to support the drum.  The crossbar is not intended to be a precision mount, but just to take some of the weight of the drum.  Looking at the picture you can see that any play involved with the crossbar:shelljig marriage will only take the drum further from the blade and not closer, so it's not an issue.  It just helps take some of the weight and keep it somewhat in the correct area.  As you can imagine that oak is pretty heavy to deal with by hand alone.

The precision elements involved are 1) the 2 side disks attached to the shell and the router itself (it can be adjusted up or down with a total range of about 2".  I've added some pix to illustrate better what the tool is doing.

The 4 blocks on the top board keep the shell from moving laterally too much.







PS After seeing your hi hat stand idea, I'm sure you are capable of building a stave drum as long as you have some tools.  That hi hat is really a great idea.
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Offline Bob Dias

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 01:55 PM »
Dizz!
It looks great. Gotta love those router jigs.
Can't wait to see/hear the finished shell.  Now that I am settled in in CO, time to get my shop back in order!

You'll love the sound and look of the oak.

cheers, Bob
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Offline Vintage Ludwig

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 08:55 AM »
Ive been thinking of buying a Brady 8x14 Sheaoak stave snare.  This is pretty cool and looking forward to how it turns out. Hats off to you for doing this.  Its lots of work but gratifying in the end Im sure!

Cool stuff 8)

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 05:57 PM »
Bob and Luddy

Thanks for the kind words!!

I hope I can approach the quality Bob displayed on his DIY stave kit.  I have an update now that I have some stain and seal on it.   I just need some hardware now :D


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Offline Bob Dias

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 11:28 AM »
Nice! The grain really pops.  Hardware = chaching.  Save the pennies and get the good stuff!

nice work. you're giving me the workshop bug again...Bob
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Offline Bart Elliott

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2010, 10:23 AM »
Great work dizz; very impressive. I'm looking forward to hearing the drum once you are finished, but I'm enjoying the process.

Be sure to shoot some video when the time is right!

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 05:22 AM »
Thanks for stopping in and dropping a note, Bart.  When I started I wasn't expecting to end up with a decent product but as each stage is completed, it's looking more and more like a real drum -to my surprise.

As Bob said, "save your pennies for the good hardware", that's what Im going to have to do.  I frankly don't have the dough to go out and get the proper hardware at the moment and I don't want to shortchange the final stage.  So it might be a little while before I get to actually play it.
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 09:17 PM »
Hard to know if these edges are done or not, not being able to put a head on and tune, but I can say this, these edges are flat.  The inner 45 degree bearing edge cut apexes up to the bearing edge that 45s out to the perimeter of the drum.  2 45's.  I can always change it. 

One alternative was to 45 it from the inside out -just one cut.  That would put the head contact over the very outer section of shell.  I figured with this shell as thick as it is, I should put the edge a bit more toward the middle of the shell.  I've got a lot more wood under the bearing edge this way.  And with all the wood on this shell -it seemed like the way to go.  I could  be totally wrong.  We'll find out eventually.

Anyhow I have some updates of the work I've done to the bearing edges.  Was pretty tough to get focused pix of the edge.  There are a couple with the shell sitting inside a 13" pearl brass piccolo.  Gives a little perspective to the shell and helps me imagine hardware on it.

I think the grain looks interesting when the segments are book-matched.




These next 2 are my clearest edge pix



Nice snug fit without resistance:





Tried to repair a little chip out here:  Still need to put some sandpaper to it, and maybe a chisel.  That one segment has a few chips out of it for some reason.  It's a bit darker and the grain is different.



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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2010, 10:18 AM »
OK I about to layout the lug placement.  8 lug drum but 12 segments.  As you can see the inside is not rounded so that creates a few issues that need to be planned for.

Either I can place the lugs in the center of 4 segments and on the joint of 4 segments, or I can shift all holes over a quarter of a segment and all hole thicknesses should be consistent.

Just wondering how that would look.  Shifting all the holes over a quarter segment, would expose all joints (I wouldn't have been able to cover them all anyway unless I used a 12 lug design which I have never seen on a 13" diameter drum.) 

Does drilling through a joint make a weak spot?  The way I understand it, the joints are actually not weak spots for a traditional 1/4" shell thickness, but with a 1.25" shell thickness, the joints may in fact be the weak spots.

I am leaning toward the shift over a quarter segment idea, but wanted some feedback and thoughts from anyone who can add advice here.  What do you think?

Also, I'd be interested to hear about any tricks or techniques for laying out perfectly spaced holes.  Thanks all

~dz
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 11:43 PM »
I have some excellent news!  The drum sounds wonderful.  Here's what I did today.

I robbed hardware from other drums I have to get this one going.  Took the rims and the whole throw mechanism from my Pearl brass piccolo.   Took the lugs and lug nuts from a $10 craigslist snare that is cheap as cheap can be.  I actually like the look of the lugs ok, but they are low quality.  The worst part is the lug bolts though -dare I say they suck outright.  Oh well, Ill get better stuff in time.

Anyhow as you can see in this pic, I went with the 1/4 segment layout:


When I first put the heads on for the first time, I was disappointed in the sound.  Turns out the drum needed a snare bed cut into it.  Made all the difference!  I can't wait to put a sound sample together -perhaps something like James Walker used to do haha.  Not sure you can see the snare bed in these pix



The drum is not perfect.  I needed to take more material off the outside of the shell it turns out I needed more patients on that phase of construction.  The shell is a little fatter in the center than it is at the edges.  The lugs had decent rubber gaskets that I had to take off because it oriented the lugs too far away from the shell edge and the lug bolts were not perfectly vertical.  It's not so bad that there is danger of stripping, but something to note for next time.  It's important to get that part right.  The lug bolts came with some horrible washers

I should have wiped it down for the pix -there are fingerprints all over the place.  That's what happens when you're working on it still.







Welp, Ill finalize this thread with some audio files eventually.  Im going to play this snare on a gig tonite, so I'll have some feedback.  Cheers!






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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 11:50 PM »
Forgot to mention, the drum feels really good too which is worth noting.  I know before the beds were cut, it did not feel good.  Nor did it sound good.  Except when the snares were disengaged.  But with the beds, it's all good.  I'm really digging it and I hope it holds up now.

If anyone is interested in having one made, let me know.  I'd love to build another.
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Offline Chip Donaho

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2010, 08:51 AM »
Congrats, what started on a whim turned into a very nice drum. I hope it sounds as good as it looks. I'm anxious to hear you thoughts after gigging with it.  8)
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2010, 01:35 PM »
Thanks Chip

Well the gig went pretty well.  My band loves it.  Course, they'd say that tho, unless it just sounded pathetic.  But I really think it cuts nice.

I have a small sound file here with Tom Scott as playalong:

http://bobbyvincent.webs.com/new%20snare%20on%20TS%20stuff.mp3

I plan to make a better sample than this, but wanted to post something for now.  I didn't bother doing any mixing as you can hear it's just straight up + touch of verb.  It'll give you an idea of what this piccolo sounds like.
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2010, 05:50 PM »

I finally put together a sample http://bobbyvincent.webs.com/Fed%20Bloke.mp3 so we can hear the drum in different ways with no background or effects.  I may need to deepen the snare bed a bit.  I was very conservative cutting it thinking, I could always go back and cut more out.  I tried to play quiet in spots to test sensitivity and loud in others.

This is my practice kit so it's not a snapshot of "my sound".  The kick in this mp3 is a converted 18" floor tom with a regular pinstripe and an ambassador gauge resonant head with no muffling (sometimes Ill drape a felt pad over the reso for a punchier however not as warm sound).  This bass drum tuning is so unforgiving haha. I didn't have my kick mic available so I used a c1000s :/.  But the purpose was for a snare sample anyhow.  Snare has a 57 on it, with a c1000s overhead (in addition to the one in front of the kick.  I also have AKG clip on mics on the toms.   You'll also hear a small bongo here and there.


Got one old zildjian with rivets 18"; One sabian AA crash 18" ; sabian 10"splash; 16" Istanbul crash (this is the cymbal that has bolts holding a crack from spreading.  Still dig the sound of it even with hardware going through it.
The heads on the snare came off the brass piccolo so they are old :/.  Ill buy some new ones next week.  Coated Ambassador on top -reg snareside remo on bottom.  No muffling.  The throw and rims came off that brass pearl piccolo.  Lugs came off cheapo snare.

I want to make a maple bassdrum 20" -not sure on the depth yet.  I wish I had a table this time around.

I really like the drum tho.  Thanks to all who stopped in to check it out. 
   Happy Memorial Day
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Offline Bill Bachman

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2010, 09:51 PM »
Cool, it's a thing of beauty!
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Offline Bob Dias

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2010, 09:09 PM »
Dizz,
Very nice! B.
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2010, 12:43 PM »
I have a recording of the snare's maiden voyage.  This was the first gig with the new snare.  Got a clip of a song we started playing last month.  Not too happy with my playing lately but here is a sample of what my snare sounds like in a live situation:

http://bobbyvincent.webs.com/diggin%20on%20James%20Brown.mp3

Here is some Chicago we do (same gig):

http://bobbyvincent.webs.com/Chicago.mp3

Still trying to get a better feel going on the Chicago medley -especially the transition.   I play a couple set up fills that are just not locked in :/  Oh well it's all a work in progress -playing drums :)  So much fun
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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2010, 01:25 PM »
The snare sounds great, and so does the band. I wouldn't worry so much about nailing the fills. The fills you did are fine! More importantly, you're nailing the time and feel of these songs very nicely. I love the horn section. Not too many of those around these days.

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2010, 04:39 PM »
Thanks for the reply Michael!  Yes it's so fun to play with horns.  We also do some Tower of Power stuff too.  You can hear them here

http://www.drummercafe.com/component/option,com_jfusion/Itemid,2/boardseen,/jfile,/topic,19976.msg291032/#new


Stick weight seems to make a significant difference with this smaller drum


Cheers
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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2010, 06:00 PM »
Good as well. I'm envious of your musical situation. I'm in a guitar band that's transitioning from mostly blues to hard edged rock (change of singers brings change  :-\ ).

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2010, 05:06 PM »
Finally got a clip up of the new drum with a fresh head n tune.

 http://www.youtube.com/user/Ismlor#p/u/3/kovZtCPNsFE]http://www.youtube.com/user/Ismlor#p/u/3/kovZtCPNsFE

 http://www.youtube.com/user/Ismlor#p/u/1/BiESHfxKrVo]http://www.youtube.com/user/Ismlor#p/u/1/BiESHfxKrVo
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Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2011, 09:58 PM »
I have what is probably a final update on my stave drums.  Here are some pix of completed shells.  As you can see I am no photographer and am not doing these justice.   Rims will change in time but this is what these drums are going to look like.  It's all red oak with a splash of solid wenge to band the bass hoops.  All shells are not turned on the inside and are about 1.5 inches thick.  These drums are heavy

Sizes are

20" x 14.5" with 2.5" hoops
13 x 4 pic snare
10 x 7.5
12 x 7.5
16 x 12

lugs by Ego






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Offline Bob Dias

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2011, 03:48 PM »
Dizz,

they look fantastic and likely sound even better!  I love the red oak and the chrome tube lugs. I wish the insides were turned down to about 1/2 inch (to ease your back!), but I am sure they give you many years of happy playing...I know mine have/are.  Waiting for the NEXT project!

well done, Bob
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Offline Bob Dias

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2011, 03:57 PM »
One suggestion: Do seal the inside of the drums with a coat or two of poly or some other sealent. It will help protect the drums from big changes in humidity and such.  Again, great work!
"It's O.K. if you only know three chords, but for God's sake, play'em in the right order" (H. Hill)

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2011, 09:12 AM »
One suggestion: Do seal the inside of the drums with a coat or two of poly or some other sealent. It will help protect the drums from big changes in humidity and such.  Again, great work!

Hi Bob

Thanks for the encouragement.  I am very proud of them but I learned a lot on this project and will likely do a much better job on the next one.

Regarding the insides not being turned down,  I can still do that but wanted to give this a chance.  I figured if they sounded like crap I could always turn em down and see if that helped.  As it turns out (no pun intended), they sound pretty good in my opinion.  That's why I didn't seal the insides since I might just turn around and cut all that wood out anyway but will seal them somehow.  I wonder if a linseed rub would be sufficient

I have an unedited link of what they sound like up if you'd like to hear them.  It's 2 songs unfortunately you guys have heard me play on these tracks before but at the time it's the only CD I had available.  It's got mistakes n all on it but you can hear what the drums sound like. 

 http://bobbyvincent.webs.com/Tsunami%20Jazz.mp3]http://bobbyvincent.webs.com/Tsunami%20Jazz.mp3

I still am waiting on spurs so until then my kick is sitting flat on the floor which puts the beater contact point about an inch further away from where I expect it and takes getting used to.

I've already started a maple project which does have the insides turned down.  I'll post when it's done -probably here as not to tie up more bandwidth than needed. 

You're right about years to come.  These shells could roll down a flight of stairs and not come apart.  They will likely outlive me

Cheers!
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Offline Todd Norris

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2011, 07:40 PM »
Very nice!  I'm going to listen to that link right now.  Once you've lived with them unturned for a while, check back in with more thoughts. 

Try tung oil as a sealer. 

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2011, 10:41 PM »
Hey dizz, dude...im really diggin your playing and your sound. I aint no punk..ive been around the block and youve got a special thing goin on. Dont tell me you havent heard this befor. What can i say?....keep on keepin on...im impressed.

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2011, 03:00 PM »
Happy 4th to Everyone!

Thanks a lot Paicey.  One of the coolest parts of playing on what I build is the fact that I truly have my own sound right down to the drums themselves.  It's my sound.  good or bad

I have a fresh link up of the oak kit with 2 maple snares I built from the same 13" shell.   I built the maple snares with leopardwood highliting every other seam.  Cut one into a 3.25" piccolo(at my left) and the other into a 5.5" deep that is in the primary position.  I'm kinda of a newb to having 2 snares set up and wasn't completely comfortable with it but wanted to give the 2 a side by side test run.

pardon the lack of a windscreen
 http://www.youtube.com/user/cafemarsvdo#p/a/u/2/4SPoUerW_qU]http://www.youtube.com/user/cafemarsvdo#p/a/u/2/4SPoUerW_qU

I think the drums sound and look great and I am very proud of them.  I can't wait to experiment with different heads but that takes time as I can't go out and try 4-5 different types all at once (I'm sure 99% of us can relate to that)

I've learned a lot about what makes snare drums in particular sound different which has already been valuable to me as a drummer and a builder.

I have a maple bass drum & hoops, the 2snares I mentioned built and playable right now.  I just need to built a floor tom and a couple rack toms for a full maple kit which fwiw I will be turning town the insides of the shells on.  I hope the maple kit becomes the gigging kit as it will be much lighter(weight-wise) than the oak and could look really nice with that maple grain.
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Offline DR

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2011, 09:39 AM »
Dizz, way to go! 

While I cannot see the photos in the earlier posts to this topic, the drums sound great to my ears.  Plus, for my taste, you played great on all five uploaded songs that I heard.  Any chance you could send a PM to me with a link to the pics?

Offline dizz

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Re: my stave drum experiment
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2011, 10:53 AM »
I recorded this loop a few days ago.  AKG mics / Firepod / Zoom q3hd / Cubase / Premeire pro 5.5

Merry Christmas everyone!

 http://youtu.be/JJHBD8DUEGw?hd=1]http://youtu.be/JJHBD8DUEGw?hd=1
♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪

 

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